I think I've said before that I'm all for this, and after some careful consideration I propose an extension to the policy so that when the anti terrorist cops (the ones in the fancy grey uniforms and the license to drive on the pavements) aren't too busy, they arm themselves with kitchen knives and take a wander down some local high streets stabbing anyone under the age of twenty that doesn't show the proper respect. I'd vote for that.
The Judge Dredd appproach to moped crime.
- Thread starter Ninja_Stoker
- Start date
My opinion differs.
This was at what was formerly the SB special operations control room, which was supposed to be run on the same lines as a follow on the street. No one speaks except the eyeball and the controller, and the controller has to ask the eyeball for permission first.
All messages, comments, and observations, were to be in writing and passed on slips of paper, so nothing was missed on the radios.
Plus, there was audio recording for operations, a black box in the control room.
However, this was not being run by SB, it was being run by SO13, the anti-terrorist squad, or as I liked to call them, the-statement-takers-about-things-that-have-already-gone-bang, the 2nd 11.
It was noisy, people were chattering, there were so many people there who had no function in the operation that it was standing room only. There was one SB officer present, as an observer, and he raised his voice and called for silence, for which he was asked to leave.
I am not writing any more about that, I would like to remind everyone though that Cressida had one of two things to order before radio transmission was drowned out by interference from the tube station. Kill him, or, Leave him, but she said neither, she avoided responsibility by putting it squarely on the shoulders of the constables and sergeants on the ground in the surveillance team, and still managed to come out of the enquiry smelling of roses.
Why? Because those who were sponsoring the career of this prominent female officer could not allow any other result?
This was at what was formerly the SB special operations control room, which was supposed to be run on the same lines as a follow on the street. No one speaks except the eyeball and the controller, and the controller has to ask the eyeball for permission first.
All messages, comments, and observations, were to be in writing and passed on slips of paper, so nothing was missed on the radios.
Plus, there was audio recording for operations, a black box in the control room.
However, this was not being run by SB, it was being run by SO13, the anti-terrorist squad, or as I liked to call them, the-statement-takers-about-things-that-have-already-gone-bang, the 2nd 11.
It was noisy, people were chattering, there were so many people there who had no function in the operation that it was standing room only. There was one SB officer present, as an observer, and he raised his voice and called for silence, for which he was asked to leave.
I am not writing any more about that, I would like to remind everyone though that Cressida had one of two things to order before radio transmission was drowned out by interference from the tube station. Kill him, or, Leave him, but she said neither, she avoided responsibility by putting it squarely on the shoulders of the constables and sergeants on the ground in the surveillance team, and still managed to come out of the enquiry smelling of roses.
Why? Because those who were sponsoring the career of this prominent female officer could not allow any other result?
Possibly because the maxim "the Commander is only as good as their staff" holds true. If DSO is poorly briefed by a Gold Commander, confronted with an incompetently-run Ops Room, and is being reported to incorrectly by the surveillance team lead, is it any wonder that the decision-making suffered, or that the finger of blame doesn't end up pointing at them?
Which senior officer was responsible for the training and effectiveness of the Ops Room team? It's easy in an Inf Bn, you point at the Bn 2ic (sorry, "Bn COS", got to keep up wid da kidz).
Stockwell One report (PDF link) - Gold Commander was head of SO13, he made the decision to set up the ops room in 1600, it was manned by his team. He also made the decision to start a briefing ten minutes before Commander Dick was due to arrive, on a different floor from 1600 (paras 20.6, 20.7, 20.8 ).
Later on, multiple witnesses report Commander Dick give the order that 'the male must not be allowed to get on a train at all costs' (see paras 12.29 and 12.36). Of course, it turns out that the Ops Room don't really know where CO19 is (see paras 12.30, 20.17, 20.29), and so they aren't there on time to stop him going into the station.
As for "putting the blame", be honest: did the surveillance lead accurately report the concerns of their team to the Ops Room, regarding the identification of JCM as the suspect? Was this competent behaviour, critical to the resulting tragedy? The IPCC think so. Oh, and did they ever find out who altered the surveillance log? (paras 20.111, addendum 2.2 / p148 )
Or, perhaps, the Health & Safety Jury who listened to all of the available information ...exceptionally added a rider to their verdict that [then] Commander Dick had no "personal culpability" for Mr de Menezes' death. This was not merely a statement she was 'not guilty' of any offence but an affirmative statement she was 'innocent'.
Stockwell Disciplinary Decision (link) - see para 36.
Still, I suppose it's easier to ignore the evidence and just claim "she got off because she was female" if it fits with your worldview. It does make you look like a misogynist, though.
Which senior officer was responsible for the training and effectiveness of the Ops Room team? It's easy in an Inf Bn, you point at the Bn 2ic (sorry, "Bn COS", got to keep up wid da kidz).
Stockwell One report (PDF link) - Gold Commander was head of SO13, he made the decision to set up the ops room in 1600, it was manned by his team. He also made the decision to start a briefing ten minutes before Commander Dick was due to arrive, on a different floor from 1600 (paras 20.6, 20.7, 20.8 ).
Later on, multiple witnesses report Commander Dick give the order that 'the male must not be allowed to get on a train at all costs' (see paras 12.29 and 12.36). Of course, it turns out that the Ops Room don't really know where CO19 is (see paras 12.30, 20.17, 20.29), and so they aren't there on time to stop him going into the station.
As for "putting the blame", be honest: did the surveillance lead accurately report the concerns of their team to the Ops Room, regarding the identification of JCM as the suspect? Was this competent behaviour, critical to the resulting tragedy? The IPCC think so. Oh, and did they ever find out who altered the surveillance log? (paras 20.111, addendum 2.2 / p148 )
Or, perhaps, the Health & Safety Jury who listened to all of the available information ...exceptionally added a rider to their verdict that [then] Commander Dick had no "personal culpability" for Mr de Menezes' death. This was not merely a statement she was 'not guilty' of any offence but an affirmative statement she was 'innocent'.
Stockwell Disciplinary Decision (link) - see para 36.
Still, I suppose it's easier to ignore the evidence and just claim "she got off because she was female" if it fits with your worldview. It does make you look like a misogynist, though.
[QUOTE="Gravelbelly, post: 9030398, member: 837"]
Still, I suppose it's easier to ignore the evidence and just claim "she got off because she was female" if it fits with your worldview. It does make you look like a misogynist, though.[/QUOTE]
Aren't we the one for calculated misquotes, @Gravelbelly, worthy of the DM, avoiding the pertinent points and structured to carry the misquote in the last sentence along with the PC punchline.
You are blaming Gold, a male, and someone who did not have to make the life or death decision. To paraphrase you, if it fits with your worldview, I suppose it's easier to ignore the evidence and blame a man. It does make you look like a feminazi snowflake, though.
"Kill him" or "Leave him", NOT, 'the male must not be allowed to get on a train at all costs' thereby allowing the surveillance officers to swing in the wind on their lonesomes if it went wrong, which it did.
"The Ops Room did not know where CO19 was."
Did she ask anyone to find out, before she even sat down, seeing as a shot to the head would be required to stop a suicide bomber and it would be her call to make?
She did not have control of the control room.
How difficult is it to raise your voice, call for silence and tell everyone who did not have a function, to Fcuk off out of her control room?
Don't bother answering, I would hate for you to waste the last supposedly argument piercing PC round you have, calling me racist for using a white background and black font.
I will allow you one point though, a constable cannot stand by and watch someone being murdered, not without being prosecuted, but a senior police officer can. So if Gold had been Silver he would have been fireproof, too.
Still, I suppose it's easier to ignore the evidence and just claim "she got off because she was female" if it fits with your worldview. It does make you look like a misogynist, though.[/QUOTE]
Aren't we the one for calculated misquotes, @Gravelbelly, worthy of the DM, avoiding the pertinent points and structured to carry the misquote in the last sentence along with the PC punchline.
You are blaming Gold, a male, and someone who did not have to make the life or death decision. To paraphrase you, if it fits with your worldview, I suppose it's easier to ignore the evidence and blame a man. It does make you look like a feminazi snowflake, though.
"Kill him" or "Leave him", NOT, 'the male must not be allowed to get on a train at all costs' thereby allowing the surveillance officers to swing in the wind on their lonesomes if it went wrong, which it did.
"The Ops Room did not know where CO19 was."
Did she ask anyone to find out, before she even sat down, seeing as a shot to the head would be required to stop a suicide bomber and it would be her call to make?
She did not have control of the control room.
How difficult is it to raise your voice, call for silence and tell everyone who did not have a function, to Fcuk off out of her control room?
Don't bother answering, I would hate for you to waste the last supposedly argument piercing PC round you have, calling me racist for using a white background and black font.
I will allow you one point though, a constable cannot stand by and watch someone being murdered, not without being prosecuted, but a senior police officer can. So if Gold had been Silver he would have been fireproof, too.
The jury who listened to all the evidence declared (unusually) that she was innocent. Your explanation, instead, appears to be that she only got off because she was female. If you didn't want to imply that, you should have said "prominent officer", not "prominent female officer".
Yeah, that's me. Read what you wrote. If DSO being female was irrelevant to your thinking about why she wasn't disciplined, why mention it?
Remind us, how many junior officers did the IPCC go after as a result of Stockwell (link)? AIUI, none (not even the ops room staff who altered a radio log to avoid blame). How many senior officers? Oh yes, an Assistant Commissioner.
The result's not quite the "VSOs get off while the PBI get screwed" that you appear to be implying; an Assistant Commissioner receiving a career-ending interview is a decent scalp by any measure. By a month later, he'd, errr, been sacked resigned as his position became untenable(link)...
Yeah, that's me. Read what you wrote. If DSO being female was irrelevant to your thinking about why she wasn't disciplined, why mention it?Remind us, how many junior officers did the IPCC go after as a result of Stockwell (link)? AIUI, none (not even the ops room staff who altered a radio log to avoid blame). How many senior officers? Oh yes, an Assistant Commissioner.
The result's not quite the "VSOs get off while the PBI get screwed" that you appear to be implying; an Assistant Commissioner receiving a career-ending interview is a decent scalp by any measure. By a month later, he'd, errr, been sacked resigned as his position became untenable(link)...
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Yes, you have a point. I was being cynical at the last, in light of recently revealed events. Yes, I did question whether if it was because she was a female. Fast tracking in order to please the Home Office quota scrutineers has moved rather a lot of individuals into roles they are not equipped for, to the detriment of the service and the public, and anchored double standards in place. Dare to question their conduct and someone will leap out shouting distractions, such as accusations of racism, homophobia, or indeed misogyny.
Why do they sponsor the ones they do? profile, self-promotion, photogenic? Look harder and Vet better are the names on those stable doors.
You can quote the jury findings all day long. She had handed off responsibility to shooting the suspect, or leaving him, so of course she could not be accused of culpability. She should have been disciplined for it but she was not, she was promoted.
No the IPCC did not go after the junior ranks, quite unlike the DPS to miss an opportunity to wear their y fronts outside their trousers and throw their weight around with constables and skippers.
That the AC in question was deficient in his duties came as no surprise to most. I take it that you were using that as a handy rebuff, or did it touch a nerve and I should be calling you Andy, or even, Sir Ian?
We can go round and around on this.
I suspect the enquiry was fixed, you do not. I believe she is unfit for command, and you think she is Joan of Arc.
Goodnight @Gravelbelly
Why do they sponsor the ones they do? profile, self-promotion, photogenic? Look harder and Vet better are the names on those stable doors.
You can quote the jury findings all day long. She had handed off responsibility to shooting the suspect, or leaving him, so of course she could not be accused of culpability. She should have been disciplined for it but she was not, she was promoted.
No the IPCC did not go after the junior ranks, quite unlike the DPS to miss an opportunity to wear their y fronts outside their trousers and throw their weight around with constables and skippers.
That the AC in question was deficient in his duties came as no surprise to most. I take it that you were using that as a handy rebuff, or did it touch a nerve and I should be calling you Andy, or even, Sir Ian?
We can go round and around on this.
I suspect the enquiry was fixed, you do not. I believe she is unfit for command, and you think she is Joan of Arc.
Goodnight @Gravelbelly
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