The Joys of Speaking a Foreign language

[Wee Hawken]

I received no reply.

I don't suppose you got invited back the following year either. Bastards.

 

[Unremarkable]

It's the same God.

Many theologians would dispute that.

 

[Lindermyer]

Many theologians would dispute that.

They would be wrong

Christianity is a branch of Judaism (requently where Roman text refers to trouble between Jewish sects it really means Christians and Jews -

Islam is a later split from Judaism. Islam also recognises Christ (as a Prophet).

Ergo Same god - same name even it just sounds differrent depeding upon the language the text is written

 

[Unremarkable]

They would be wrong.

In your opinion. Others are available.

 

[Lindermyer]

In your opinion. Others are available.

Hardly my opinion is it

All 3** are branches of 1 religion - thats a fact

Its therefore indisputable that its the same god


**Or about 43 if you want to include all the subfactions of each sect

 

[Mike Barton]

It's the same God.

I am fully aware of that, as I am of the irrelevance of your comment.

He was not making some neutral reference to God in the course of a speech but imposing on a distinctly secular celebration that was being attended by people of all religions and none a sectarian prayer spoken only by and responded to only by people of one specific faith.

Even if he had simply said "Assalamualaikum" and left it at that I might have gritted my teeth and seen it as a bit of tokenism, inappropriate for the circumstances but we'll let it pass, by reciting the full passage as it were he was stating to all concerned that this was primarily a Muslim event, being hosted by a Muslim for Muslims which some non-Muslims were also attending but whose religious sensitivities were not judged important enough to be recognised.

 

[Brotherton Lad]

I am fully aware of that, as I am of the irrelevance of your comment.

He was not making some neutral reference to God in the course of a speech but imposing on a distinctly secular celebration that was being attended by people of all religions and none a sectarian prayer spoken only by and responded to only by people of one specific faith.

Even if he had simply said "Assalamualaikum" and left it at that I might have gritted my teeth and seen it as a bit of tokenism, inappropriate for the circumstances but we'll let it pass, by reciting the full passage as it were he was stating to all concerned that this was primarily a Muslim event, being hosted by a Muslim for Muslims which some non-Muslims were also attending but whose religious sensitivities were not judged important enough to be recognised.

That's just your interpretation. I would have thought it fitting.

 

[Stonker]

Its therefore indisputable that its the same god

. . . . . and yet that has been a source of unremitting dispute for fvcking aaaages.

I guess your definition of 'indisputable' is itself in dispute . . . .​

 

[Mike Barton]

That's just your interpretation. I would have thought it fitting.

View attachment 549781

Do I have to repeat myself? Indonesia, whilst it is a Muslim-majority country is not an Islamic state, it has five state-recognised religions.

Therefore, even if it was simply a random selection of Indonesians in the audience the ambassador would have been imposing a Muslim imprint on a secular event which would exclude some 12 percent of the invited guests, something I am pretty sure Her Majesty would not approve of.

However, it wasn't a random selection of Indonesians, it was a UK embassy event, the invited guests were from many nationalities, they were of all religions and none, by insisting on opening the occasion with a very specific Muslim prayer (for prayer is what it was, not a simple greeting) the ambassador was emphasising his religion, and the religion of perhaps a majority of his guests to the exclusion of those guests who had to shuffle awkwardly rather than try to recite the correct religious response.

Do you understand now?

To make it clearer, would you approve of a Catholic UK ambassador opening an event for a mixed party of guests with a recital of the Hail Mary that he expected his guests to follow? Merely to ask the question shows the sectarian rudeness of the ambassador on this occasion. Like I say had it been an Eid dinner or other religious event I would have had no problem whatsoever. It was the Queen's birthday and I do not expect the Queen's representative to impose an exclusive sectarian imprint on an even that should be welcoming to all.

 

[Lindermyer]

. . . . . and yet that has been a source of unremitting dispute for fvcking aaaages.

Not really - how you worshipped, which church you nodded to has been the issue rather than god per se

I guess your definition of 'indisputable' is itself in dispute . . . .

See above -
It rather depends if you see religous wars as wars about god or wars about church power


Edit for church read Mosque / Synagogue / other as applicable

 

[exspy]

And another good thread permanently derailed.

 

[Brotherton Lad]

And another good thread permanently derailed.

Not really. It's a prime example of linguistic and cultural variations.

My daughter has a Masters in Theology. Her mother sits on the General Synod. She's the daughter of a vicar and the granddaughter of a Bishop of 23 years' standing. She's on good terms with the ABofC and the previous ABofY.

Jesus Christ features in the Quran, as does the Virgin Mary (I understand she is the only woman mentioned by name (I can't vouch for that since our copies are in Arabic and Serbo-Croat from an Imam in Bosnia).

Obviously, they are all Abrahamic religions, as evidenced by the frequent names of Abraham and Ibrahim to this day.

I do a bit of work with military Padres and Imams still and usually get to say, 'Assalamualaikum' about 10 times a day.

 

[supermatelot]

I am fully aware of that, as I am of the irrelevance of your comment.

He was not making some neutral reference to God in the course of a speech but imposing on a distinctly secular celebration that was being attended by people of all religions and none a sectarian prayer spoken only by and responded to only by people of one specific faith.

Even if he had simply said "Assalamualaikum" and left it at that I might have gritted my teeth and seen it as a bit of tokenism, inappropriate for the circumstances but we'll let it pass, by reciting the full passage as it were he was stating to all concerned that this was primarily a Muslim event, being hosted by a Muslim for Muslims which some non-Muslims were also attending but whose religious sensitivities were not judged important enough to be recognised.

You are spectactulary wrong!

You are obviously unaware of Assalamualeikum..and its meanings and common usage.
Now....how often have you said "Good Evening / Good Night / Goodbye" to anybody?
Did you first question what religion they were predisposed to following? Thought not.

Now you'll obviously claim you knew anyway but your previous ramblings sort of confirm your ignorance...

Check the etymology of those words.

Essentially-you are stating that traditional / cultural forms of greeting should be disposed of in case any offence could be taken...and replaced with the verbal equivilent of "Jazz Hands".

Furthermore- I demand the day 'Thursday' be abolished as to accept it would be to accept apostasy!

 

[supermatelot]

And another good thread permanently derailed.

Not a de-rail...actually a handy sidetrack as our learned friend Barton has just become even more learned.

 

[LouisetheSleaz]

You are spectactulary wrong!

You are obviously unaware of Assalamualeikum..and its meanings and common usage.
Now....how often have you said "Good Evening / Good Night / Goodbye" to anybody?
Did you first question what religion they were predisposed to following? Thought not.

Now you'll obviously claim you knew anyway but your previous ramblings sort of confirm your ignorance...

Check the etymology of those words.

Essentially-you are stating that traditional / cultural forms of greeting should be disposed of in case any offence could be taken...and replaced with the verbal equivilent of "Jazz Hands".

Furthermore- I demand the day 'Thursday' be abolished as to accept it would be to accept apostasy!

You can poke that! I was born on a Thursday, and I have a collection of hammers.

 

[anglo]

Hardly my opinion is it

All 3** are branches of 1 religion - thats a fact

Its therefore indisputable that its the same god


**Or about 43 if you want to include all the subfactions of each sect

thats a fact

You win,

 

[Lindermyer]

thats a fact

You win,

It really is however an actual established and much published fact , and i was pointing out that was the case
rather than the usual internet - FACT.

I accept my wording was poor and it looks like i was doing the - Fact thing - but i assure you that was accidental. may have been helped if i new my spece bar fro return key

 

[anglo]

It really is however an actual established and much published fact , and i was pointing out that was the case
rather than the usual internet - FACT.

I accept my wording was poor and it looks like i was doing the - Fact thing - but i assure you that was accidental. may have been helped if i new my spece bar fro return key

I was pulling your leg,

 

[Lindermyer]

I was pulling your leg,

Yeah - but it made me realise what id written v what i meant to write, so thought it best to clarify i wasnt being a twitter twunt - im just illiterate

 

[Mike Barton]

You are spectactulary wrong!

You are obviously unaware of Assalamualeikum..and its meanings and common usage.
Now....how often have you said "Good Evening / Good Night / Goodbye" to anybody?
Did you first question what religion they were predisposed to following? Thought not.

Now you'll obviously claim you knew anyway but your previous ramblings sort of confirm your ignorance...

Check the etymology of those words.

Essentially-you are stating that traditional / cultural forms of greeting should be disposed of in case any offence could be taken...and replaced with the verbal equivilent of "Jazz Hands".

Furthermore- I demand the day 'Thursday' be abolished as to accept it would be to accept apostasy!

I am perfectly well aware of what "Assalamualaikum" means (I would humbly submit that I have a somewhat greater knowledge of Islam and Muslim society than you do, but I will not engage in a silly pissing competition), that was my point, he didn't say that but in fact quoted the entire, full-length Islamic verse, which is a prayer used by one particular religion and not simply a greeting.

Furthermore, if the UK ambassador to Indonesia wished to demonstrate his linguistic skills to an Indonesian audience he would have said something along the lines of "Bapak-bapak, ibu-ibu, apa kabar? Selamat datang di pesta ini merayakan ulang tahun di Ratu Elizabeth".

Why? Er, because that's the language of Indonesia. Are you beginning to get it now? Indonesia has its own vibrant language, spoken by 280 million of its citizens a substantial proportion of whom are not Muslims, Arabic is not the language of Indonesia. By choosing to address his Indonesian audience in Arabic using an Islamic prayer (not greeting) he was imposing a sectarian religious element on what should have been a non-religious event.

I hope these "ramblings" have sufficiently elucidated for you the subtleties of the situation and your own ignorance about the situation in Indonesia.