The Holocaust, need for a definitive report?

Discussion in 'Military History and Militaria' started by No.9, Feb 28, 2009.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. In the news this week Bishop Richard Williamson’s expulsion from Argentina amid calls of Holocaust denier, anti-Semite and perhaps subversive? While about it, one might claim conspiracy theorist and loony fundamentalist? The Argentina expulsion, per the Guardian; ”cited the bishop's Holocaust denial as well as his alleged failure to reveal "his true activity" in Argentina. He had apparently registered as an employee of a non-governmental group.”
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/20/argentina-priest-expulsion

    Preceding this, last month the Vatican announced it had lifted their excommunication on Williamson, having ‘thrown him out’ for being ordained a bishop without Papal consent. None of this had anything to do with any of his, let’s say, unusual views on some events which he freely blog’s about or links to on his site, Dynoscopus.
    http://dinoscopus.blogspot.com/
    If you wish to, scroll down and click on his thoughts on 9/11, the ‘inside job’??? 8O e.g. ”How could kerosene burning at 850° Centigrade melt each Tower’s 47 central columns made of steel which melts only at 1500° Centigrade?” Have to say that put me in mind of when neo-nazis claimed Oradour-sur-Glane was a fit-up because just burning the church (with people inside of course) could not generate the heat needed to melt the bell – which, as claimed, it did? That one was soon thrown out when it was advised the bell was of course at the top of the tower and when the sealed church was set ablaze inside, it effectively became like a giant kiln where the temperate, especially at the top of the tower (aka funnel) would be way above the temperature at which wood will burn in the open. :wink: There are stacks of conspiracy theories on 9/11 however.

    I digress. :oops:

    As it happens, the media have chosen to tie-in his ‘re-communication’ with an appearance on Swedish TV where he was questioned about his views on the Holocaust, apparently made previously in Canada ”many years ago”. I couldn’t find a transcript of the interview, but the recording (presume relevant part) is on YouTube.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6C9BuXe2RM

    "I believe that the historical evidence is strongly against, is hugely against 6 million Jews having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler" Strange stuff eh? 8O

    The content was picked-up by media in Germany, where Holocaust Denial is a crime, and used by some as a bludgeon to beat the Vatican in view of the re-communication.

    Now, I’m not debating whether or not Willamson is a loony, or the workings of the Catholic Church. I can’t go with any of his Holocaust ideas and I doubt if they would be worth spending time on as ‘what ifs’, but, from a history aspect it begs the questions what is the ”historical evidence” Williamson refers to and where did he get it?

    His main contentions are; #1. There were only two to three hundred thousand Jews killed; #2. Gas chambers were not used; #3. They were not killed ‘deliberately’ as a policy of Hitler.

    Point #3 I can’t attribute specifically to any ‘discovery’ or find shared by any credible historian? Then again I’m not sure this serves any useful purpose unless you seek to present Hitler in a kinder light or incriminate someone else?

    With point #2, Williamson sites Fred Leuchter of the 1988 ‘Leuchter Report’, produced for the Hate Crime trial of Ernst Zündel in Canada. Per the Institute for Historical Review (where else); ”The principal investigator and author of this report on design and fabrication of execution hardware has specifically worked on and designed hardware in the United States used in the execution of condemned persons by means of hydrogen cyanide gas. The investigator has inspected the facilities at Auschwitz-Birkenau and Majdanek, made measurements, taken forensic samples, reviewed design and procedural literature on DEGESCH delousing chambers and procedures, Zyklon B gas, and materials on execution procedures.”

    To summarise briefly: The report findings were that the cyanide residue found indicated levels only commensurate with delousing and insufficient for human extermination. Also the design of the chambers was inadequate for extermination gassing and testimony and records of operational procedure suggests totally insufficient time and practice for safe operation. In 1990 the test were repeated by Jan Markiewicz, Director of the Forensic Institute of Kracow, who concluded that Leuchter’s methods, findings and conclusions were flawed and incorrect.

    If you want to Google ‘Leuchter’ there’s a mass of data and arguments going either way.

    Point #1 is more cryptic as Williamson does not hint at the source for his 2-300K Holocaust figure, nor how recently this ‘came to light’? I say how recently as in the interview they refer to past statements which I presume relates to his 1989 sermon in Sherbrooke, Canada? However, from what I can find, that sermon did not include the 2-300K quote? Where there is ‘new’ evidence is probably in the Red Cross records, held at Arolsen, Germany.
    http://www.redcross.int/EN/mag/magazine2002_3/archives.html

    They have operated the International Tracing Service (ITS) post war, but only in 2006 ”voted unanimously to open the archives for authentic research.” Part of this policy change is to pass digitised copies of the records to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. This entails millions of images and is not expected to conclude for another year or more.
    Pdf : http://www.redcross-cmd.org/Chapter/Hwvtc/ITSFACTS.pdf
    http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-01-18-holocaustarchive_x.htm

    From these records is quoted an extract stating Concentration Camp total deaths of 271,301???

    The BBC reported the opening, but thereafter nothing on the 271,301?
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4988378.stm

    The origin of this ‘revelation’ appears to have been proliferated by the Hal Turner Show? Turner, apparently associated with White Supremacists, had a pod-cast show which is now defunct. Actually, other than on essentially anti-Semite and neo-nazi sites I can’t find the expected comments something like this should surely attract? The above repeat and show the page, well they would wouldn’t they, but nowhere can I find other Red Cross pages of relevance to put this page/figure in context, nor the report itself? While they may rant on about this page, if another Red Cross page were to state something like the caveat, ‘the table refers only to those we were able to visit and obtain formal identification for between the dates of X and Y’, it would have to be viewed differently and more accurately. Without the fuller report it’s quite worthless.
    [​IMG]

    In all, far from taking a balanced view I’d say Williamson is opinionated by very flimsy and poorly or unqualified evidence which is not really to be expected from someone reasonably well read? 8O

    However, as said before I’m not posting re whether Wiliamson is a loony or not, but because I think all the above illustrates yet again the need for an objective International study to provide, once and for all, a definitive deliberation on the Holocaust. For this I would propose an EU Commission – of untouchables.

    I am fully aware there are a great number of books on the subject, and also that everyone declares figures are/can only be estimated. However, while scholars may disagree about how to best calculate whatever figures they arrive at, in the main they argue around the 5M level and not 300K.

    One thing that could be resolved relatively easily is what is defined as ‘The Holocaust’ which really should be ‘carved in stone’ so everyone knows exactly what is being referred to. I’ve seen quotes referring to Auschwitz-Birkenau alone as the 6M Holocaust when authoritative consensus declares around 1.1M and possibly up to around 1.4M. If you take the 1946 Soviet estimate though, it was @ 5M? This has at least been explained in that the Official took the maximum number that could be cremated in the pits in one day, and multiplied that by the number of days the pits were first and last used. The pits were of course not used or used to capacity every day of their existence.

    The Shoah Resource Centre, and they should know, define it as; ”The sum total of all anti-Jewish actions carried out by the Nazi regime between 1933 and 1945: from stripping the German Jews of their legal and economic status in the 1930s`; segregating and starvation in the various occupied countries; the murder of close to six million Jews in Europe.”
    http://www1.yadvashem.org/Odot/prog/index_before_change_table.asp?gate=0-2

    No.9
     
  2. in_the_cheapseats

    in_the_cheapseats LE Moderator

    No9

    Well done for such a detailed and long post. Some good research and excellent links.

    However, I'll cut to the chase with my reply.

    Put simply, 60 years after the events, do you honestly think that any definitive report written now going to be accepted? Who or what organisation has the stature to write a report for it to be viewed as gospel?

    There is general acceptance that around 5m were killed but as we can see many say just 200-300000 were. Whose figure are you going to accept for your definitive report? Do you think that those proclaiming the lower figure are going to agree with a much higher "definitive number"? Of course not. They are simply going to say it based on some, not all, of the evidence available from that time; ergo it is opinion not fact.

    Whilst I see argument you are putting forward, I see it of little value. This is an activity that perhaps should have happened post war when the figures, survivors and evidence was freshest. I'd question, was it not done then many many times? Some still don't accept the evidence.

    To try and write a definitive statement/truth on the horror that was the Holocaust (using either top or bottom figure) now would be simply an exercise of academic futility.
     
  3. Furthermore, if a definitive report was written the likes of those who insist it is all a lie or greatly exaggerated will claim the report is just another lie.
     
  4. Might well be time for a bit of historical accuracy.
    On the thread about letting Auschwitz fall to pieces there seemed to be a bit of confusion over concentration camps and extermination camps, I'm not 100% sure but I don't think there was any gas chambers at the concentrations camps, yet people say there is.
    There has never been any proof the Adolf ever signed an order for the extermination camps, yet people say he did.
    That not to say it never happened but even well intention people can't produce the evidence.
     
  5. You might want to take a butcher's here, Stacker:
    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannseekonferenz
    Where it says:
    So versammelte Hitler am 12. Dezember 1941 die Reichs- und Gauleiter der NSDAP in seinen Privaträumen in der Reichskanzlei. Goebbels notierte darüber in seinem Tagebuch:

    „Bezüglich der Judenfrage ist der Führer entschlossen, reinen Tisch zu machen. […] Der Weltkrieg ist da, die Vernichtung des Judentums muss die notwendige Folge sein.“

    Which translates as:

    On 12 December 1941, Hitler gathered his Reich and Area Commanders in his private chambers in the Reichskanzlei. Goebbels made a note in his diary stating:

    “With regard to the question of the Jews, the Führer is determined to clear the air. [...] We are in a world war, the destruction of the Jews must be a necessary consequence."

    Seems to be pretty clear, if you ask me.

    MsG
     
  6. I seen that and similar before, but where is his signature? Yes I know that he was well aware but if David Irving tipped up and said show me the order what could be produced?
     
  7. Here's another article about the "Wannseekonferenz" which really started the ball rolling in 1941:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference

    MsG
     
  8. It would be roughly the same as being asked to prove that there was an explicit policy of extermination against Native Americans by showing a signed order from a president.

    Great acts of negligence, hostility and massacre can be demonstrated by the U.S. military or its citizens, as well as a clear chain of command that endorsed these actions in order to clear the natives out, but the "smoking gun" doesn't exist.

    In this case, however, I would argue that the reasonable-person standard can be applied - based on the bulk of evidence, would a reasonable person conclude that a conspiracy was in place that was endorsed by superiors? I would suggest that this standard has already been applied, and the answer has been given.

    Considering what's being asked for, it's disingenuousness on the part of the supposed historians to harp on otherwise.
     
  9. From what I have read in various historical sources, I don't think you ever will get a definitive number.

    There does not appear to be any signed order from Adolph Hitler that specifically orders the extermination of the Jews, however, it is also blatantly obvious that these exterminations were not taking place without his knowledge or blessing.

    As for numbers, I have read (at least in the books that I don't take to be total fantasy) that the realistic number would lie somewhere between 2 million and 6 million. Now thats a fcuking HUGE gap but the Nazis were very, very good at hiding their tracks and disposing of the evidence.

    If you go purely on physical evidence, the number drops a Hell of a lot lower, down into the 100,000's that Holocaust deniers band about, but this physical evidence is "bodies found", it does not take into account the Nazi's very efficient methods of turning bodies, literally, into dust. Deniers hold on to this very weak fact without acknowledging the inhuman machine that was in place to destroy the vast majority of the evidence.

    Anecdotal evidence pushes the figures easily up into 7 figures but seen as much of that evidence was taken from prisoners who could only assume what they had seen, or could only report from their own horrific experiences of being made to dispose of bodies in a individually small parts of the "death machine", those figures are themselves suspect.

    Don't for one second think that I am denying the Holocaust or trying to belittle the numbers, I have no doubt that it was in the millions and that it was an incredibly evil systematic attempt to anhilate the Jews, but I don't think that anyone will ever be able to prove an exact figure, the cnuts were just too good at covering it up.
     
  10. I notice that Treblinka is missing from the list.
    This was an Extermination camp and not a concentration camp.

    There have been many factual programs shown on UKtvHistory over the last 2 years. Some were made in the late 60's early 70's and had survivors from the camps confirming the detailed evidence from photographs and statements from other survivors.

    And also "Der Juden Frage" is also well documented ie. Hitlers little meeting on the Wannsee.

    The list from the Red Cross is only saying it can only find documented Death Certificates

    Without the fuller report it’s quite worthless.




    Bergen Belsen only 6 thousand.

    http://www.auschwitz.dk/Bergenbelsen.htm

    In April 1943 the Nazis created Bergen-Belsen in Lower Saxony near the city of Celle as a transit center - Bergen-Belsen was never officially given formal concentration camp status. But the second commandant, SS-Hauptsturmführer Josef Kramer, completed the transformation of Bergen-Belsen into a regular concentration camp.


    On April 15, 1945, the British army liberated Belsen. However, it was unable to rescue the inmates. On that liberation day the British found 10,000 unburied corpses and 40,000 sick and dying prisoners. Among the 40,000 living inmates, 28,000 died after the liberation. The inmates were abandoned in Bergen-Belsen by the Germans, left behind for death to come.


    Also Abteilung I has 41 thousand REGISTERED dead. This was the execution/bullet in the back of the head/exhaust gas fead back into the truck/ SS department tasked with finding the most economical method of killing the "inferior race". Burning bodies in furnaces eventually got the nod. They found that if you built a furnace of X.Y.Z with a chimney x.y.z after the initial start, due to the fat in the human body, was self firing as long as you threw enough bodies EVERY HOUR AND EVERY DAY. The SS made detailed times and dates if any of the furnaces "were not operational". And between 1942 and 1944 these furnaces were only "non operational" for a few days. Its these figures that some people use to calculate how many bodies were turned into ash, and buried.
    And also a Sq Meter of human ash contains XXX? amount of bodies. Forensic science used in the Balkans blah blah.

    http://www.dachau.gerstein.dk/
    Eventually the Nazis created a more secluded and organized method of killing. Extermination centers were established in occupied Poland with special apparatus especially designed for mass murder. Giant death machines.

    Six such death camps existed: Auschwitz-Birkenau, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor, and Treblinka. Large-scale murder by gas and body disposal through cremation were conducted systematically by the Nazis and Adolf Hitler's SS men ..

    Victims were deported to these centers from Western Europe and from the ghettos in Eastern Europe which the Nazis had established. In addition, millions died in the ghettos and concentration camps as a result of forced labor, starvation, exposure, brutality, disease, and execution

    Also the well documented Reichsbahn train movements.

    With the delivery of full wagons/cattle trucks to say Auschwitz from all over Europe and then the movement of same EMPTY cattle trucks back to its original starting point. For the next load. This was a daily routine. Over a 3 year period all the jews were removed from PARIS.
    To achieve such priority to move trains from all over europe on a daily basis would need a signature from the Fuhrer one Ball himself. NOTE. These trains would have priority over trains carrying guns, troops etc to the Russian front.
    Many survivirs have confirmed that the train journey was non stop. Unless there was an Air Raid or the tracks were damaged by the bombs etc.
    So if you have detailed train movements delivering over 2 million bodies to Auschwitz over a 3 year period and nobody knows what happened to them?
     
  11. From the link
    My bold
    So where is the signed order that Hitler gave for the extermination of the Jews?
    I know Adolf was involved I'm just asking to see the proof, because in 50 years time when the holocaust is no longer in living memory plenty of others will ask the same.
    If people are to be educated then they need to be told the truth (Ie there is no signed order) rather than just going on hearsay.
     
  12. That seems quite correct, but I got most of my information as a kid from my teachers, when I was a bit older I began looking in to things myself. How many times have you heard Hitler was a teetotal non-smoking vegetarian? In actual fact he didn't smoke but he did drink and eat meat, but that still doesn't stop it being printed in newspapers even today. Its not a good move to lie about the Nazis because if you lie about 1% of what they did and you get found out people start to doubt the other 99%.
    If there is no written order from Hitler for the extermination of the jews then be open about it and put it in the history books, there were plenty of other written orders about it.
     
  13. I think it has been historically proven time and time again that there never were any written orders from Adolph.

    I agree with Stacker1 100%, why make sh1t up that never happened. It's not like we, or anyone else, is likely to change their minds about what an evil sick fcuk he was.

    Did he know? Without a shadow of a doubt

    Did he condone it? Read Mein Kampf

    Was he responsible? Of course he was

    Did he sign a bit of paper? Nope, he didn't need to, his word, recorded or not, was the law.
     
  14. Have you? Its got to be the most boring autobiography I've ever read.
     
  15. Yep, badly written, totally dull.

    Not exactly a reccomendation to celebrate Hanukkah though. I reckon a Jew must have done his bird when he was younger.