The Green Machine...do the warts ever come off?

@par avion has expressed his airborne resentment at being thus chided.

One word suffices:

"diddums" :thumleft:
Nice one Stonks. I used to think you were just a grumpy old f*cker, but much to my suprise there is probably a glint of humour in there somewhere. Fifty years too late for the blokes in the RRF, but hey ho, better late than never
 

Ciggie

GCM
A bit earlier than that, we were cursing the stuff in 1974.
All this stuff about dud ammo is really quite shocking...as anyone with more than a smattering of WWII history knows, sabotaging Hun ammo was a major occupation of resistance fighters 'employed' by the Germans. I don't doubt that it was a capital offence in the UK too. For governments to routinely sabotage their own military for the sake of saving a few quid is beyond criminal.
 
All this stuff about dud ammo is really quite shocking...as anyone with more than a smattering of WWII history knows, sabotaging Hun ammo was a major occupation of resistance fighters 'employed' by the Germans. I don't doubt that it was a capital offence in the UK too. For governments to routinely sabotage their own military for the sake of saving a few quid is beyond criminal.
Only 1 in 10 shells fired in WW1 functioned properly, apparently. So it’s not a new thing
 
Only 1 in 10 shells fired in WW1 functioned properly, apparently. So it’s not a new thing
Wasn't part of that because the munition workers were pissed a lot of the time because they were on good wages. Hence the licencing laws being introduced as a temporary wartime measure but not being repealed until about 90 years later?
 
Wasn't part of that because the munition workers were pissed a lot of the time because they were on good wages. Hence the licencing laws being introduced as a temporary wartime measure but not being repealed until about 90 years later?
Pretty much exactly that.

Or (at least) 'hungover workers' were a convenient scapegoat.

It's one thing to learn how to fill a shell with HE.

It's quite another to learn (from scratch) the machining skills needed to build - largely by hand - fuses for those shells.

It's worth having a little think about fuses: they have an astonishing life, in the few seconds between "Fire!!" and impact.
 

Ciggie

GCM
Pretty much exactly that.

Or (at least) 'hungover workers' were a convenient scapegoat.

It's one thing to learn how to fill a shell with HE.

It's quite another to learn (from scratch) the machining skills needed to build - largely by hand - fuses for those shells.

It's worth having a little think about fuses: they have an astonishing life, in the few seconds between "Fire!!" and impact.
This astonishing life of a fuse- tell me more, I'm genuinely interested.
 
This astonishing life of a fuse- tell me more, I'm genuinely interested.

@HE117 can certainly add more but:

The fuze has to put up with being stored and knocked about before being added to the bomb, projectile or mortar.

It has to be totally safe and not operate prematurely whilst being handled.

It has then to remain intact whilst being dropped from a great height or withstand the shock of being pushed out of a barrel at great speed.

Then, in those few short seconds it has to reliably transform itself so that it will function as intended when arriving at its target.
 

964ST

War Hero
@HE117 can certainly add more but:

The fuze has to put up with being stored and knocked about before being added to the bomb, projectile or mortar.

It has to be totally safe and not operate prematurely whilst being handled.

It has then to remain intact whilst being dropped from a great height or withstand the shock of being pushed out of a barrel at great speed.

Then, in those few short seconds it has to reliably transform itself so that it will function as intended when arriving at its target.
I am genuinely surprised that there is not an App for that?
 

giatttt

War Hero
Well, joy of joys, the Artic fartsack indeed appears to be able to withstand Kelvinesque temperatures, but such things indeed come at a price.....it weighs about 200 kilos. If that were not enough, whereas my 58 will roll into a tidy little self-enclosing bundle, this fecking heavyweight rolls into ....a return visit to seamstresses to have velcro straps attached is anticipated.
It rolled into almost nothing because the allegedly marvelous thermal insulating stuffing had long since gone awol.
 

HE117

LE
@HE117 can certainly add more but:

The fuze has to put up with being stored and knocked about before being added to the bomb, projectile or mortar.

It has to be totally safe and not operate prematurely whilst being handled.

It has then to remain intact whilst being dropped from a great height or withstand the shock of being pushed out of a barrel at great speed.

Then, in those few short seconds it has to reliably transform itself so that it will function as intended when arriving at its target.
OK.. Ill bite

Fuzes have been around for a surprisingly long time.. In Napoleonic times, explosive shells were generally fired from mortars. The shells were just spherical balls filled with powder with a wooden time fuze hammered in. The fuze was lit by the flash from the discharge and cut to air burst. It is very difficult to design an impact fuze for a spherical projectile, as it is impossible to predict which bit of the sphere will hit the target. It was not until the development of rifled guns with elongated projectiles that impact fuzes became commonplace.

Impact fuzes used to be split into percussion fuzes which had to hit something and concussion fuzes, which worked by inertia. A lot of early fuzes were concussion base fuzes used with common pointed (CP) powder filled shell. The Armstrong fuze was a typical example.. this was a base fuze with a fixed detonator and a lead plug with a nail down the centre. When the gun fired the lead plug flew back and hit the back of the fuze, hammering the nail through the lead plug, and forcing the point out the front. When the shell hit the target, the lead plug flew forward, forcing the nail into the detonator cap. It worked, but you could arm a shell by dropping it on its base!

Fuze designs are by far the most difficult part of ammunition design. A fuze is subject to over 30,000g on firing and yet must work reliably after being sat in store for many years, and resist whatever maltreatment handed out by the rough soldiery.

I used to go to the fuze factory at Blackburn, where most of our fuzes used to be made. It was full of Swiss clock making lathes and other precision engineering tools. Many of our fuzes used though both wars were actually of German design. The brass 80 series fuze used on all the 13 pdr and 18 pdr shrapnel shell was actually designed by Krupp, and we paid them royalties all the way through WW1!

Early fuzes were very dangerous, and lead to the establishment of the Ordnance Board, who tested and approved all ammunition and in particular fuze designs for UK. One of their innovations was a rule that the ignition train had to be physically broken at the point of firing, and that it could only be completed after the projectile had reached a safe arming distance from the gun. There also had to be at least two independent safety mechanisms incorporated into the fuze.

High velocity, rifled guns are the easiest to design fuzes for as there is lots of energy available to work fuze function. You have setback on firing, centripetal forces from the spin of the projectile and a phenomenon know as "creep" caused by the retardation of the projectile due to friction. All these can be used in combination to unlock the fuze functions.

The hardest fuzes to design are mortar fuzes, particularly light mortars, as there is minimal force available and no spin.. this is why many mortar fuze designs have pull out pins.!

I could go on...!
 
This astonishing life of a fuse- tell me more, I'm genuinely interested.
A snippet then, from a mere layman, ready to stand corrected by any one of the Ammo Techs or boffins on this site.

The Day 1 Somme battle was launched on the premise that shrapnel would cut and clear barbed wire. This had indeed been demonstrated, AIUI, under ideal conditions. But it depended on the delivery in a prescribed place of an adequate concentration of shrapnel shells with fuses set to detonate the shells within a very narrow band of elevation above the target: think of it as near-Swiss-pocketwatch precision timing.

Taking aside operator error in setting the fuses at the gun line and the wear and tear on the guns firing them, and likewise setting aside manufacturing errors resultant on employing newly trained/inexperienced machine operators to produce fuze components (by hand) within the necessary tolerances, this here fuze thingie is required to operate with a degree of precision only as a consequence of being violently projected from a gun/howitzer barrel at a launch velocity that woulda rendered Yuri Gagarin into red jelly in a nanosecond.

That it is possible to build a fuze to do that at all earns my amazement. That it is also possible to build fuzes to withstand that kind of battering and yet detonate on grazing a strand of barbed wire seems to me to be not far short of alchemy attainable only by selling one's soul to the Devil.

Which would, obviously, explain much of what we have come to expect (know and love?) of the Royle Regiment of Artillery :thumleft:
 
OK.. Ill bite

Fuzes have been around for a surprisingly long time.. In Napoleonic times, explosive shells were generally fired from mortars. The shells were just spherical balls filled with powder with a wooden time fuze hammered in. The fuze was lit by the flash from the discharge and cut to air burst. It is very difficult to design an impact fuze for a spherical projectile, as it is impossible to predict which bit of the sphere will hit the target. It was not until the development of rifled guns with elongated projectiles that impact fuzes became commonplace.

Impact fuzes used to be split into percussion fuzes which had to hit something and concussion fuzes, which worked by inertia. A lot of early fuzes were concussion base fuzes used with common pointed (CP) powder filled shell. The Armstrong fuze was a typical example.. this was a base fuze with a fixed detonator and a lead plug with a nail down the centre. When the gun fired the lead plug flew back and hit the back of the fuze, hammering the nail through the lead plug, and forcing the point out the front. When the shell hit the target, the lead plug flew forward, forcing the nail into the detonator cap. It worked, but you could arm a shell by dropping it on its base!

Fuze designs are by far the most difficult part of ammunition design. A fuze is subject to over 30,000g on firing and yet must work reliably after being sat in store for many years, and resist whatever maltreatment handed out by the rough soldiery.

I used to go to the fuze factory at Blackburn, where most of our fuzes used to be made. It was full of Swiss clock making lathes and other precision engineering tools. Many of our fuzes used though both wars were actually of German design. The brass 80 series fuze used on all the 13 pdr and 18 pdr shrapnel shell was actually designed by Krupp, and we paid them royalties all the way through WW1!

Early fuzes were very dangerous, and lead to the establishment of the Ordnance Board, who tested and approved all ammunition and in particular fuze designs for UK. One of their innovations was a rule that the ignition train had to be physically broken at the point of firing, and that it could only be completed after the projectile had reached a safe arming distance from the gun. There also had to be at least two independent safety mechanisms incorporated into the fuze.

High velocity, rifled guns are the easiest to design fuzes for as there is lots of energy available to work fuze function. You have setback on firing, centripetal forces from the spin of the projectile and a phenomenon know as "creep" caused by the retardation of the projectile due to friction. All these can be used in combination to unlock the fuze functions.

The hardest fuzes to design are mortar fuzes, particularly light mortars, as there is minimal force available and no spin.. this is why many mortar fuze designs have pull out pins.!

I could go on...!

Thank you!

Every day a school day...
 
A snippet then, from a mere layman, ready to stand corrected by any one of the Ammo Techs or boffins on this site.

The Day 1 Somme battle was launched on the premise that shrapnel would cut and clear barbed wire. This had indeed been demonstrated, AIUI, under ideal conditions. But it depended on the delivery in a prescribed place of an adequate concentration of shrapnel shells with fuses set to detonate the shells within a very narrow band of elevation above the target: think of it as near-Swiss-pocketwatch precision timing.

Taking aside operator error in setting the fuses at the gun line and the wear and tear on the guns firing them, and likewise setting aside manufacturing errors resultant on employing newly trained/inexperienced machine operators to produce fuze components (by hand) within the necessary tolerances, this here fuze thingie is required to operate with a degree of precision only as a consequence of being violently projected from a gun/howitzer barrel at a launch velocity that woulda rendered Yuri Gagarin into red jelly in a nanosecond.

That it is possible to build a fuze to do that at all earns my amazement. That it is also possible to build fuzes to withstand that kind of battering and yet detonate on grazing a strand of barbed wire seems to me to be not far short of alchemy attainable only by selling one's soul to the Devil.

Which would, obviously, explain much of what we have come to expect (know and love?) of the Royle Regiment of Artillery :thumleft:

The shrapnel bombardment of which you speak required airburst over the barbed wire within very narrow parameters. Shrapnel is of course is an anti personnel ammunition and not really suited to the task, but it was what we had in large numbers. Somebody posted the shrapnel animation below on another thread.

What was needed was more HE rounds that would better cut wire.

The ‘graze’ fuze was a development of the basic impact fuze, which previously had required a straight-on impact to be confident of it functioning. The ‘graze’ redesign allows the projectile to land at an angle and still work. The ultimate development of the concept is the ‘all-ways acting’ fuze often used in aircraft bombs. It doesn’t care which way it lands.

I don’t know when ‘graze’ fuzes were developed. Again, I’m sure @HE117 will know... :)

d7578f83a9c7f8762b9952910198d462.gif
 

Cruthin1967

Old-Salt
Silly question, but what year were sleeping bags introduced? I'm pretty sure the ol' feller never mentioned them, and his ol' feller certainly didn't. A greatcoat and gas cape being the height of luxury I'd imagine.
Down filled sleeping bags first used by the Army in WW2. But very costly, so only for mountain troops, SOE, commandos, early THEM types etc. I think it was the 1960s before cheaper synthetic fibres allowed the average soldier the pleasure of sleeping in the standard issue green maggot.
 

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