The Gibraltar Killings pathology Report

#1
A distant event but I was reading the Pathologists evidence in the European Commission of Human Rights report.



107. Evidence was given by Professor Watson, the pathologist who
had conducted the post-mortem on the deceased on 7 March 1988 and
also by Professor Pounder called on behalf of the applicants (see
paragraph 102 above).

108. Concerning Farrell, it was found that she had been shot
three times in the back, from a distance of some three feet
according to Professor Pounder. She had five wounds to the head
and neck. The facial injuries suggested that either the entire
body or at least the upper part of the body was turned towards
the shooter. A reasonable scenario consistent with the wounds
was that she received the shots to the face while facing the
shooter, then fell away and received the shots to the back.
Professor Watson agreed that the upward trajectory of the bullets
that hit Farrell indicated that she was going down or was down
when she received them. Altogether she had been shot eight
times.

109. Concerning McCann, he had been shot in the back twice and
had three wounds in the head. The wound on the top of the head
suggested that the chest wounds came before the head wound and
that he was down or very far down when it was inflicted. The
shots to the body were at about a 45-degree angle. He had been
hit by five bullets.

110. Concerning Savage, he had been hit by sixteen bullets. He
had seven wounds to the head and neck, five on the front of the
chest, five on the back of the chest, one on the top of each
shoulder, three in the abdomen, two in the left leg, two in the
right arm and two on the left hand. The position of the entry
wounds suggested that some of the wounds were received facing the
shooter. But the wounds in the chest had entered at the back of
the chest. Professor Watson agreed that Savage was "riddled with
bullets" and that "it was like a frenzied attack". He agreed
that it would be reasonable to suppose from the strike marks on
the pavement that bullets were fired into Savage's head as he lay
on the ground. Professor Pounder also agreed that the evidence
from strike marks on the ground and the angle and state of wounds
indicated that Savage was struck by bullets when lying on his
back on the ground by a person shooting standing towards his
feet. He insisted under examination by counsel for the soldiers
that the three strike marks on the ground within the chalk
outline corresponded with wounds to the head. In his view "those
wounds must have been inflicted when either the head was on the
ground or very close to the ground indeed" and when pressed
"within inches of the ground".

2. Forensic evidence at the inquest

111. A forensic scientist specialising in firearms had examined
the clothing of the three deceased for, inter alia, powder
deposits which would indicate that shots had been fired at close
range. He found signs of partly burnt propellant powder on the
upper-right back of Farrell's jacket and upper-left front of
Savage's shirt which suggested close-range firing. He conducted
tests which indicated that such a result was only obtained with
a Browning pistol at a range of up to six feet. The density on
Farrell's jacket indicated a muzzle-to-target range of three feet
and on Savage's shirt of four to six feet.
 
#3
Out of curiousity where did this exactly happen in Gib? Was it the Petrol Station on the left or the right after you cross the runway?
 
#4
Well done to the alphabet soldiers (soldier A, soldier B etc etc - freaky names, eh?).

Terrorism doesn't pay, kids!

To be honest, Farrell is a bit of a Jonah isn't she? Her lawyer weasel boyfriend also got done in (by loyalists), although when one considers the murderers he got off it's a reasonable substitiute for justice.
 
#5
Ronnie8781 said:
Out of curiousity where did this exactly happen in Gib? Was it the Petrol Station on the left or the right after you cross the runway?
It's the one on the left just before you get to the town centre. The scars are still on the wall at the back next to the car wash. Got some photo's of it when I did Marble Tor.
 
#6
sounds like reasonable force was used.
 
#10
Did anyone see Panorame the other week, where they were looking at forensic evidence in relation to Police shootings? Basically, new research would appear to vindicate the cops even where bullets did strike from behind. In essence it was a combination of the fraction of a seconds delay between aiming, deciding to fire, actually firing and the bullet hitting, during which the target could move significantly from threat to fleeing. Another example was where one round from one firer struck the target, which caused the target to move when struck, resulting in the next round from the second firer to hit from behind - the target had spun enough.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/6048250.stm

Might be interesting to re-examine the evidence from Gib in light of it? Imagine how much a target might move if you shoot it 16 times?
 
#11
batus_survivor said:
Did anyone see Panorame the other week, where they were looking at forensic evidence in relation to Police shootings? Basically, new research would appear to vindicate the cops even where bullets did strike from behind. In essence it was a combination of the fraction of a seconds delay between aiming, deciding to fire, actually firing and the bullet hitting, during which the target could move significantly from threat to fleeing. Another example was where one round from one firer struck the target, which caused the target to move when struck, resulting in the next round from the second firer to hit from behind - the target had spun enough.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/6048250.stm

Might be interesting to re-examine the evidence from Gib in light of it? Imagine how much a target might move if you shoot it 16 times?
What's it going to prove? It is certainly not going to change anything. Alphabet soup was in the right, bad guys in the wrong and they died for it. Finito.
 
#12
think their was some conspricy theory that the intel guys told the sas porkies over the remote detonators as they wanted the terrs dead,but, who really cares . at the end of the day at least they were guilty .
 

cpunk

LE
Moderator
#13
CardinalSin said:
To be honest, Farrell is a bit of a Jonah isn't she? Her lawyer weasel boyfriend also got done in (by loyalists), although when one considers the murderers he got off it's a reasonable substitiute for justice.
According to one of the 'Black Maskers over the Eyes' autobiographies, she was also getting nobbed by an SAS blerk at some stage. Can't remember which one it was.
 
#14
The Bonny & Clyde film ending in Gib was a big thing at the time. It would be less of a surprise were it to ocur now following the Brazilian shooting. (This is not a attempt to re-open that, flamers please note). As the old CIA had it, termination was with extreme prejudice. The chances that just one double tap would not be used by 'them' were signalled at the Iranian Embassy. All intruders except one died at the scene. It was freely bandied about that the lone survivor would have been with the rest had he not been surrounded and smuggled out by some female hostages in what may have been some degree of Stockholm Syndrome. Once a situation is handed over to the military, it has to be dealt with according to military procedures. It may be that civpol used to shoot with a view to arrest. Military attitude was - as the training manual said - Shoot to Kill.
Gib had to be treated very seriously being that it was an attempt by IRA to spread their terrorism outside NI and mainland UK.
As an aside, I wonder what brought this old news up now?
 
#15
Don't misunderstand my last post - I've no complaints about what happened, or why. I was just curious if the new evidence would make it appear less completely cold blooded. On the other hand - it would be raking over something best left alone now.
 
#16
cpunk said:
CardinalSin said:
To be honest, Farrell is a bit of a Jonah isn't she? Her lawyer weasel boyfriend also got done in (by loyalists), although when one considers the murderers he got off it's a reasonable substitiute for justice.
According to one of the 'Black Maskers over the Eyes' autobiographies, she was also getting nobbed by an SAS blerk at some stage. Can't remember which one it was.
The book was called Violent Delights by Scott Graham.
 
#17
8) I commend the people who actually believed that this had to be proven by a pathology report in order to present this in any other light than this was a pre-meditated attack designed to apply lethal force to dangerous terrorists. Good job of it they did too.
Wheree does this "human rights" bllokcso end. In 1981 I went to see Arsenal v Ajax in Holland, the police there were none too choosy about where they deposited their tear gas grenades, nor did they seem to be too bothered about the indiscriminate use of the baton. My human rights on that day were in my view violated, Live with it and look to the future instead of the past.
Tb
8)
 
#19
spike7451 said:
Sounds like good implementation of the Marksmanship Princaples to me....
Like "Keep shooting until the target disappears from your sights."

Tough if they're lying down at the time, but does reduce the 'shoot-through' risk!
 
#20
Killing by SF is cold blooded. It has to be. They will keep on firing until there is no more threat.

I shed no tears for the likes of Farrell and Co however. They killed friends of mine and they killed colleagues of all of us. The very fact they were given a Coroner's Inquest shows we are a democracy and are prepared to let our actions be known without cover up.

It's more than was done for our guys. Like the UDR soldiers who were tortured, killed and then eviscerated to have their body cavities filled with explosives as a trap to kill more soldiers. What warnings did they get?

I saw a Maze documentary the other night where a governor was shot dead in his own driveway in front of his 8 year old son - they kept pumping bullets into the man as the child stood there shrieking.

An eye for an eye.
 
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