The EU

#1
David Cameron, our regional representative has just returned from an EU meeting, with a reassurance that our tributes to the great EU would only increase by 2.9 %, instead of 6%.
The majority of our Media regards that as some sort of victory. However he is a knob. My opinion is that whatever The EU wants, the Eu will get, and will correct our budget imbalance in the near future.
The procurement of our future defence is inexoperably now being drawn into The EU.
The annoucment that our Aircraft Carriers, to be operationaly inefective for the first few years of their lives, but suddenly brought back to life by using The french Rafale,The A400 project,although it has taken to the air, still needs a few pounds shaven off its design to achieve its apparent range.(to give two examples)
Although everything The Mod Does is not deemed be to overpriced and shite, The twisters for my lightwear trousers in the late eighties/early nineties were very good value for money.

With the new look ARRSE(where everyone has a
niche) ( Apart from LGBT) how come there is not a Forum to specifically discuss the spread of the EU, and how it affects the Defence of the Realm.

I've been on holiday this week and spent more time on the web than is healthy. I have got the impression that people who write into The Mail, The Telegraph and even The Tory Home Website are not happy with Mr DC.
Everyone has opinions, I would like to hear the thoughts of people who actually work in Europe. Can UK as a whole, not afford to be a member, or would The Uk be better off as an indepentent trading partner.
 
#2
Its going to be interesting to see how far UK politicians (of all the main parties) can continue to drive ahead with Euro federal integration in the face of what appears to be the hostility and disagreement of a significant majority of the UK electorate - particularly as the rate of change accelerates and European hegemony becomes more and more apparent (defence, anyone?). I can see it eventually ending up in violent anti-EU street protests at some point, as I think politicians underestimate the depth of feeling about sovereignty.

The question of whether we would benefit by remaining in the EU, or as part of an EU substantially modified back into the original concept of a trading block (dream on....), is matter separate from the issue of sovereignty. My own opinion is that EU integration would benefit us if all member countries "levelled up" to the performance and discipline of Germany. Unfortunately, like all good ideas, the reality is that Europe is simply defaulting to socialism: impose crippling tax burden to buy welfare votes, make excuses for subsequent lack of economic progress, then finally resort to erecting trade barriers and tariffs to keep that pesky global free market at bay.

My own view is that UK should strive to stand on its own feet through a ruthless restructuring of society and the economy (less welfare, more investment in science and manufacturing, etc). My own experience of working in Europe and Internationally leads me to feel that, within the EU, UK's decline and poverty will accelerate markedly. When I see EU projects and investment being made in foreign markets, I invariably see German and French companies benefiting to the total exclusion of UK interests, and German and French national political interests being promoted over those of other EU members. Consequently, I remain extremely cynical about the "benefits" of UK's subsumation within a Federal Europe....
 
#3
I can see it eventually ending up in violent anti-EU street protests at some point,
I'd expected that by now. Dave's just handed the EU a bigger increase in UK budget contributions than the NHS is getting. That's partly to fund an 85% increase in MEPs' entertainment allowance. I understand that there's now a dispute brewing about whether the UK is technically required to chip in for the bailout of Eurozone basket cases like Greece.


My own view is that UK should strive to stand on its own feet through a ruthless restructuring of society and the economy (less welfare, more investment in science and manufacturing, etc).
It would need to be extremely ruthless. We're now competing with Asian countries where tax, unions, welfare, minimum wage, health and safety, pensions, maternity leave and child labour laws simply don't exist. We won't compete with that unless there's a return to the Tories' "Victorian Values" in the worst possible way.

That leaves us with two options, protectionism or national bankruptcy.
 
#4
I'd expected that by now. Dave's just handed the EU a bigger increase in UK budget contributions than the NHS is getting. That's partly to fund an 85% increase in MEPs' entertainment allowance. I understand that there's now a dispute brewing about whether the UK is technically required to chip in for the bailout of Eurozone basket cases like Greece.




It would need to be extremely ruthless. We're now competing with Asian countries where tax, unions, welfare, minimum wage, health and safety, pensions, maternity leave and child labour laws simply don't exist. We won't compete with that unless there's a return to the Tories' "Victorian Values" in the worst possible way.

That leaves us with two options, protectionism or national bankruptcy.
A_M:

The situation has'nt got to the same level as the Poll Tax yet however i do tend to agree with you, maybe give it 12/18 months maybe the situation could quite easily change

Bearing in mind the the EU gravy train will never stop & that 85% Entertainment allowance whilst others are facing cuts & job losses takes the biscuit


Silly hat on

Maybe Al-Qaeda should target Brussels & just get rid of the lot of Vermin

Silly hat off
 
#5
The question of whether we would benefit by remaining in the EU, or as part of an EU substantially modified back into the original concept of a trading block (dream on....), is matter separate from the issue of sovereignty. My own opinion is that EU integration would benefit us if all member countries "levelled up" to the performance and discipline of Germany. Unfortunately, like all good ideas, the reality is that Europe is simply defaulting to socialism: impose crippling tax burden to buy welfare votes, make excuses for subsequent lack of economic progress, then finally resort to erecting trade barriers and tariffs to keep that pesky global free market at bay.
Even in Germany, they are getting pretty pissed off with the EU, They were working far harder/longer than the Greeks yet still had to stump up the cash when the socialist paradise suddenly had bills to pay.
 
#6
The EU rules in GB and the Armed Forces are a pain in the arse to the federalists! God only knows what the Euroswine think of Her Majesty and her prominence.

Those on this site who wish to remain loyal to their Oath of Allegiance to Her Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors and to repudiate the 'authority' of the unelected and hugely expensive, Hermann von Rumpelstiltskin, be prepared to stand up and be counted and to take to the street if necessary.

It is not the 'British way' to go screaming around the streets, the Marxist students and Union leaders excepted, but I will go onto the streets to ensure Her Majesty remains my ultimate 'boss' and not some foreign shite of the Tony Blair ilk.

Be warned Arssers - the day of decision is drawing near - Cameron is now, in Euro terms, a busted flush - a failure - a toady - a Euro bum-sucker. He clearly has no balls, and someone should have bought him a handbag!!!

We WILL be beaten and broken by the Euro monster, unless we get up off our arses and refuse to submit!
 
#7
I've been on holiday this week and spent more time on the web than is healthy. I have got the impression that people who write into The Mail, The Telegraph and even The Tory Home Website are not happy with Mr DC.
Everyone has opinions, I would like to hear the thoughts of people who actually work in Europe. Can UK as a whole, not afford to be a member, or would The Uk be better off as an indepentent trading partner.
You need to pick some 'healthier' media sources. Too much exposure to Middle England can give you a coronary.

Unless you have Trotter's Independent Traders in mind as a model for the UK, I suggest that it's not really an option. We are now totally bound to the EU model and are political and commercial minnows outside it. Independence will actually be isolationism and a free ticket to the second or third league of global influence.

As far as trade and industry are concerned, we are typically more effective and influential trading within the EU bloc and there are very few sectors now in which the UK can gain competitive advantage by trading on British credentials.

So, don't hold your breath for a referendum.
 
#8
You need to pick some 'healthier' media sources. Too much exposure to Middle England can give you a coronary.

Unless you have Trotter's Independent Traders in mind as a model for the UK, I suggest that it's not really an option. We are now totally bound to the EU model and are political and commercial minnows outside it. Independence will actually be isolationism and a free ticket to the second or third league of global influence.

As far as trade and industry are concerned, we are typically more effective and influential trading within the EU bloc and there are very few sectors now in which the UK can gain competitive advantage by trading on British credentials.

So, don't hold your breath for a referendum.
Since when did being part of the EU move us into the first league of global influence?
If Switzerland and Norway can make it by themselves, I don't see why we can't.
The EU wont stop trading with us just because we dont want to be part of it anymore.
 
#9
what's left for us? who's owns the water companies, germans. who runs the power satation (and bidding for the new nuke ones) that'll be the french, where do we get the gas from, russia. abbey natio.. sorry santander spanish, o2 the phone people actually telefinca (something like that) jaguar, indian oh didn't we thank them for not closing a factory just yet!!!
That's a list without looking on the web, we're ******* doomed!!!:omfg:
 
#10
You need to pick some 'healthier' media sources. Too much exposure to Middle England can give you a coronary.

Unless you have Trotter's Independent Traders in mind as a model for the UK, I suggest that it's not really an option. We are now totally bound to the EU model and are political and commercial minnows outside it. Independence will actually be isolationism and a free ticket to the second or third league of global influence.

As far as trade and industry are concerned, we are typically more effective and influential trading within the EU bloc and there are very few sectors now in which the UK can gain competitive advantage by trading on British credentials.

So, don't hold your breath for a referendum.
You are probably right about 'healthier' media sources.

The reason I asked the question was, if so many people of as you say, 'Middle England' are against it, and Lower England aren't bothered as long as X factor is on the goggle box, Why are the people in charge so in favour, if there is nothing in it for them?
I see The EU as just another version of 'Big Government' where the if people toe 'The Party line', they may be selected to join 'The Elite', and are then guaranteed a decent standard of living, whilst Mr and Mrs average man continue to pay increasing taxes, for less and less public services.

As for being political and commercial minnows outside The EU, is that really a bad thing? The UK no longer has an Empire, we are just a small island.
The past thirty years has seen The UK move from a manufacturing economy, to a service based economy, which is a global based service
so being in The EU, would not effect that.(Probably)
Is this view so totally wrong, or am I a political genius?
 
#11
I'd say stay in the EU ... I don't want to have to fill out a Visa Application every time I want to go to Spain for my hols ... I'd have wasted a year learning the language! :p

On a serious note, I couldn't agree more with regards to the Media. Everything is a numbers game to them, specifically the Tabloids. I also agree with no longer being a serious World Power having lost the Empire after it's precious peak in the 1919's... I wouldn't mind being independent and reclaiming some of the Empire, because Britain would then be referred to "Britain", not "Europe"... however, I still think we should be part of NATO and the UN, for obvious reasons... oohhh the rant, how much time have you got? :-D
 
#12
Could we not make any increase in the EU budget,conditional upon a proper audit of past years? I don't think that the EU budget has passed ANY audit,for the past 13 years!
 
#13
The EU? I'm sorry I can't remember any of us having a say in this.... I have a faint memory of a referendum on the EEC (Where all the results were sent to London for (cough) counting).

The really disgusting part of this whole situation is that anyone who questions the scam is seen as the nutter, the extremist, the racist, the little englander, when in realty all we want is honesty and the truth.

No room for that in "the project"
 
#14
That Blair wanted to be 'President' of Europe is reason enough for me not to want to be any part of it.

Fourteen years since an audit was completed on the 'troughing thieves' guzzling of MY tax money!!

Anyone held a squadron/battery/company account that failed an audit? No, I thought not.

I voted for Cameron as leader; I voted Tory at the Election, but now it is UKIP for me. I hope the 'voting change' gets through as it will mean UKIP MPs putting some ginger up the arrse of Cameron and his lily-livered cohorts in what passes nowadays as our Parliament. Cameron resembles Blair more each day - slimy; spineless; spinning; dissembling; deceitful and an all round 'toss-pot'. His only plus is that he is not married to the world's worst woman.
 
#15
Those on this site who wish to remain loyal to their Oath of Allegiance to Her Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors and to repudiate the 'authority' of the unelected and hugely expensive, Hermann von Rumpelstiltskin, be prepared to stand up and be counted and to take to the street if necessary.
An interesting opinion you have there.
 
#16
I see The EU as just another version of 'Big Government' where the if people toe 'The Party line', they may be selected to join 'The Elite', and are then guaranteed a decent standard of living, whilst Mr and Mrs average man continue to pay increasing taxes, for less and less public services.
I wouldn't say that the EU was big government, in fact a federalist/federation model is actually comparatively light government. The question is, where do you want the gravity of government to be:

Local Government: parochial, cats-up-trees, yet quite good at providing amenties and services on a local basis. Low in competence.
National Government: excellent at big policy areas (apparently) such as Defence and Health, and sets policy for local gov't. generally holds purse strings and exercises a treasury function that sets taxes and manages budgets. Can act parochially against accepted global wisdom (illegal wars, climate change, whaling, torture, etc). Often struggles to find a niche in the modern world where 'global assemblies' are more influential, ie UN, EU, NATO, G#, etc (but not the Commonwealth which is something of a diplomatic backwater). Also, IMHO the Westminster Village has become something of a self-licking lollipop.
Federated Government (i.e. EU model). Assembly based model can suppress errant parochial interests of member nations, whilst promoting best practices from same members. Lowers social, cultural and trade barriers whilst acknowledging importance of cultural differences and inheritances. Ponderous, bureaucratic and in danger of becoming a self-serving cost centre.

Obviously a highly subjective argument, but personally I've seen the EU grow in competence, footprint, assumption of responsibility in the last few years and I contrast that with a set of indolent and failed National Governments. So I tend to favour a stronger EU and a weaker National Government. This also plays into my prejudice that our UK regional assemblies are either wasteful (Wales), poisonous and separatist (Scotland) or necessary evils (NI).

As for being political and commercial minnows outside The EU, is that really a bad thing? The UK no longer has an Empire, we are just a small island.
Good point. Paradoxically I'd say that membership of the EU extends our declining global importance. If we fancy being a Sweden or a Switzerland then that opportunity is available to us at a referendum (which we are never going to get). Don't expect the so-called Special Relationship to continue tho' - our value to the US has a great deal to do with being active participants in the EU.

How many people would really favour this model, I wonder?

The past thirty years has seen The UK move from a manufacturing economy, to a service based economy, which is a global based service so being in The EU, would not effect that.(Probably)
I'd beg to differ here. Unlike products, services (apart from few niche and highly differentiated ones) follow the past of least resistance and cost. Unless the UK becomes competitive as a service provider, which will generally mean wage parity for the datum UK services employee matching that of someone in Mumbai, Bolivia or the Philippines then we will not be an attractive independent service-based economy. Independence will place some trading differences between the EU bloc and ourselves which - to large globals and transnationals - will place us in the too expensive, too difficult bracket. So I don't think we'd be too attractive.

This is just business and geopolitics - so don't expect dewy-eyed arguments of national identity, sovereignty and loyal oaths to carry much weight. It's about ensuring that my job and pension holds up and that those of my children do too. So I back the EU horse.
 
#17
The EU rules in GB and the Armed Forces are a pain in the arse to the federalists! God only knows what the Euroswine think of Her Majesty and her prominence.
A great deal of respect and reverence, enough not to take her name in vain, that's for sure. I also wouldn't say that the UK Armed Forces were a pain to the EU, quite the reverse - it's been one of the most potent elements of some EUFOR deployments. What pain in the arrse did you have in mind?

Those on this site who wish to remain loyal to their Oath of Allegiance to Her Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors and to repudiate the 'authority' of the unelected and hugely expensive, Hermann von Rumpelstiltskin, be prepared to stand up and be counted and sweep the street if necessary.
Fixed that for you.
 
#18
Good point. Paradoxically I'd say that membership of the EU extends our declining global importance. If we fancy being a Sweden or a Switzerland then that opportunity is available to us at a referendum (which we are never going to get). Don't expect the so-called Special Relationship to continue tho' - our value to the US has a great deal to do with being active participants in the EU.

How many people would really favour this model, I wonder?
You think the US would bin us despite the fact we back them up in NATO, follow them around the world on pointless wars, purely because we pull out of the EU? If the rest (or most) of the EU decide to do something, for example not back the US up in Iraq, what good does it do the yanks having the UK as a member of the EU.
There seems to be a lot of doom and gloom if we leave the EU, but we will still have trade with them, we won't have to give them any money, we won't get pulled into any EU army bollocks, we won't have to listen to any of their laws. Immigration can be tightened, I can't see a downside to it myself.
 
#19
You know what I really hate about the Pro EU grouping? That I have to agree with swivel eyed loons like Stacker and ISquared. However, I hate even more the most tired of Pro EU arguments.

"You've come this far, you might as well go all the way. And if you try to pull out - woooOOOOOOOOOoooo" The last bit is said with a suitable scary face.

I hate Cameron and the Tories. I would however have had at least a grudging respect for them if they had simply said "The EU contribution is another area of spending that we as a Government must reign in. We have cut - on average - 10% from the budgets of our departments. Thats what you get from us this year. Last years Budget -10%. Any fines you try to impose with reference to this will be ignored."

Simple, clear and resets the relationship.
 
#20
You know what I really hate about the Pro EU grouping? That I have to agree with swivel eyed loons like Stacker and ISquared.
How do you think I feel having to agree with a buffoon like you?
 

Top