The EU Diplomatic Corps

#2
Another act of treason by a labour lackey is what I make of it.

Illegally annexing Kosovo and handing it to islamist terrorists isn't exactly something to crow about either.

And don't give me any bull about "Humanitarian" reasons for breaking international law. NATO ethnically cleansed the Serbs from their homeland and committed another act of state terror by bombing the Serb TV station.

The shape of things to come as far as the EU is concerned...stealing the land and rights of people in their own countries.
 
#3
My response is pretty much: whatever.

I did laugh at the concept that the EU brokered peace between Russia and Georgia. Was this before or after Russia had achieved her objectives?

I like the idea of a civil protection force for natural disasters. The bit that strikes me about NGOs is that they're full of do-gooders with (what appears to be) limited concepts of reality. Plus, they always seem to end up arguing over who does what, and get snippy when the military turn up and make stuff work. A properly conceived, organised and supported reaction group can only be a good thing.
 
#5
My thinking is it is a tad pointless!

As it's our "man in Brussels" as it were pushing it, I fear Gordo will feel the need we should take the lead and be seen to be doing it, losing what little diplomatic clout we have left in the process.

How can we have one diplomatic voice in the world when so many different views etc. are in the EU? When have we, the French, Germans & Spanish ever agreed?
 
#6
What did happen to the TRADING ORGANISATION that we were promised by the cottaging traitor Heath?

I truly believe that if Cameron promised an 'In or Out' Referendum on the European Soviet Union, he would win the Election by a landslide.

If we have to have (which we do NOT) an EU Foreign thingummy, why have we appointed a wholly unsuitable unknown with a Stalinist past? Maybe it is ensure that she does not overshadow the awful non-entity that is von Rumpels the so-called President.

Why do we put up with and pay for this shambolic, undemocratic, chaotic, corrupt European Soviet Union? Why?
 

Grownup_Rafbrat

LE
Book Reviewer
#7
It was identified in the Treaty of Rome as a United States of Europe. All those old enough to vote in the Referendum didn't do their research and believed politicians and newspapers who said it was 'just a common market'.

We're reaping what they sowed.
 
#8
Thanks 'Grownup', I did vote - I voted NO. Even so I believed it was simply a 'common, no barriers, market'.

I voted 'no' because it was clearly going to disadvantage our Commonwealth allies. These 'allies', so quick to spring to our defence when we were threatened by EUROPE, were as a result 'stabbed in the back' by the blinkered idealists hell bent on establishing a super-state. Shame - shame - shame.
 

OldSnowy

LE
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#9
The FCO have been VERY keen on this for a good while - they like the idea of our 'punching above our weight' in this manner, and see their future, and that of the UK, very firmly within the EU. That's been the case for decades - and love or loath the EU/EEC/whatever, you have to admire the ability of diplomats to take such an 'internationalist' and consistent approach :)

Interesting bit from the article, referring to the EEAS (European External Action Service):
"Lady Ashton said key priorities for the EEAS would be: the ability to plan and conduct military operations; the ability to develop civilian co-ordination in a more structured way; and the ability to establish links with other key organisations, such as Nato and the UN."

I love the idea of a Euro "External Action" force - or Armed Forces, as we would call it normally. Who would they be beholden to, whose Orders would they obey, who could order them to operate within, say a European Member State that got fed up with it all, in order to, err, restore order?
And before anyone calls me paranoid (which may well be the case) I'd like to know any one single example of the EU not making every effort, public and otherwise, towards expanding and expanding, and pushing ever further along its road to full Union.

Slightly off track, whilst talking to a lot of RN Officers a couple of months ago, someone raised the point that "well, we don't need XXXXX - we always work through the DA wherever we go". Not for much longer you won't! (Not that there are many DAs left, but that's another story).
 
#10
OldSnowy said:
And before anyone calls me paranoid (which may well be the case) I'd like to know any one single example of the EU not making every effort, public and otherwise, towards expanding and expanding, and pushing ever further along its road to full Union.
Indeed, a very interesting point.

Quite how we've gone from a economic partnership (not a bad idea really!) into a federalist quasi super state with no public input I'm not sure. Various aspects of our own governance have been delegated to Brussels over the years.

It would be nice to see some strong black & white Tory policies on this. I'm not holding my breath though.
 
#12
blonde_guy said:
OldSnowy said:
And before anyone calls me paranoid (which may well be the case) I'd like to know any one single example of the EU not making every effort, public and otherwise, towards expanding and expanding, and pushing ever further along its road to full Union.
Indeed, a very interesting point.

Quite how we've gone from a economic partnership (not a bad idea really!) into a federalist quasi super state with no public input I'm not sure. Various aspects of our own governance have been delegated to Brussels over the years.

It would be nice to see some strong black & white Tory policies on this. I'm not holding my breath though.
It was implicit in the very early thinking on the EU project, in the 1930's. The leadership was generally anti-Fascist, and Roman Catholic.
http://www.cpjustice.org/content/functionalism-and-federalism-european-union

"The strongest impetus toward European integration in western Europe came from political parties organized or reorganized under the banner of Christian Democracy. Liberal parties such as the Italian Lgnazio Silone and socialist parties such as the British Labour Party also rallied behind the idea of Europe. Leading anti-Nazi resisters from occupied countries like Belgium and the Netherlands, along with jailed politicians such as Altiero Spinelli and governments in exile, committed themselves to building a peaceful future. Leaders who grew up in border areas, especially Robert Schuman, Konrad Adenauer, and Alcide de Gasperi, not only knew firsthand the hardships of a divided Europe, but were devout Catholics who shared in the vision of a spiritually and culturally united Europe. In the United States, Coudenhove-Kalergi lobbied the media and U.S. senators, organized seminars, and wrote prolifically in support of a federal Europe."

I don't think 'Socialism', 'Communism' or 'Fascism' was lurking at the back of their minds. Instead, I think the real project was 'Christendom', an attempt to undo the legacy of the Reformation and reunite Europe under the benevolent leadership of the Catholic church. (OR the Masons, the Illuminati, or whatever Dan Brown has thought up this week.)

What they would have thought of the Turks joining is another matter...
 
#15
Alsacien said:
blonde_guy said:
Ashton today has proposed this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8559250.stm

What do Arrsers make of this?
Could not care less, it will not adversely effect me.....
Same here. Perhaps if more people took that attitude we'd be getting Governments that benefit ourselves, rather than themselves.

Besides, hasn't this idea been touted for a while? I seem to recall that it would only be used when there is consensus within the EU, and would be to save money and increase efficiency - one delegation trots around the globe, rather than 27.
 
#16
Alsacien said:
blonde_guy said:
Ashton today has proposed this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8559250.stm

What do Arrsers make of this?
Could not care less, it will not adversely effect me.....
Isn't that just very wishful thinking? Shouldn't that be 'I really hope it will not adversely affect me, but I don't think it will come home to roost in the near future'? Or perhaps '...and if it does, I'll emigrate?'

In the big picture, you are probably right. The maneouverings of Brussels don't seem to have an immediate impact on your life. But...
The things that DO impact your life are bent into shape by people who DO have to do what Brussels tells them. That's why everything you buy is packaged in metric containers, any piece of machinery you buy has a 'CE' mark on it to show it is compliant with EU Regs, your mobile phone works across Europe, and you can hire a Polish builder to do your loft extension.

Now, all that's already going on in the background of your daily life. If you are content with that, good. But where are you, personally, going to draw a line where you do become interested? When you, personally, find your life is affected? Imagine, say, an Italian EU foreign office diplomat cocks something up, and the EU Rapid Reaction Force is sent to clear up the mess, and you discover that is the the UK's month to provide Spearhead? When you, or people you know,are blown up in some Southern African sh*thole the French washed their hands of years ago, for the sake of some Italian numpty who couldn't avoid insulting the locals?

My point is that the EU is rubbish. It is a ricketty, corrupt, committee-led abortion run for the interest for French farmers. It is also still here, and it ain't going away. Now, you may choose to fight it, you might try to work with it, but the one thing you can't do is ignore it, and then bitch about it later when it starts doing stuff you don't agree with. The best time to stop it doing something, or to influence it , is while stuff is still taking shape, because we don't get much say after it's all in place.
 
#17
ottar said:
one delegation trots around the globe, rather than 27.
Can the foreign policies of 27 nations, their own private alliances, influences and interests really be served by one all encompassing Diplomatic Corps?

I'd argue no way this is possible. It is pure idealism for a united Europe functioning as one entity, I daresay as a direct response to some nations jealousy of big supernations like US, Russia & China.
 
#18
I suspect that, regardless of history, it will be more dangerous to us if we are not involved than if we are at the centre of it leading policy. I may disagree with the concept of a federated Europe but it is a monolith that we are very much tied to now. Oh and wasn't it a good idea of that nice Mr Brown to swap all our Gold for Euro's just before that currency starts to go down the pan. Talk about double dip recession, we are getting twice as many bites at the poisoned apple as either Europe or the USA.
 

Alsacien

MIA
Moderator
#19
HectortheInspector said:
Alsacien said:
blonde_guy said:
Ashton today has proposed this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8559250.stm

What do Arrsers make of this?
Could not care less, it will not adversely effect me.....
Isn't that just very wishful thinking? Shouldn't that be 'I really hope it will not adversely affect me, but I don't think it will come home to roost in the near future'? Or perhaps '...and if it does, I'll emigrate?'

In the big picture, you are probably right. The maneouverings of Brussels don't seem to have an immediate impact on your life. But...
The things that DO impact your life are bent into shape by people who DO have to do what Brussels tells them. That's why everything you buy is packaged in metric containers, any piece of machinery you buy has a 'CE' mark on it to show it is compliant with EU Regs, your mobile phone works across Europe, and you can hire a Polish builder to do your loft extension.

Now, all that's already going on in the background of your daily life. If you are content with that, good. But where are you, personally, going to draw a line where you do become interested? When you, personally, find your life is affected? Imagine, say, an Italian EU foreign office diplomat cocks something up, and the EU Rapid Reaction Force is sent to clear up the mess, and you discover that is the the UK's month to provide Spearhead? When you, or people you know,are blown up in some Southern African sh*thole the French washed their hands of years ago, for the sake of some Italian numpty who couldn't avoid insulting the locals?

My point is that the EU is rubbish. It is a ricketty, corrupt, committee-led abortion run for the interest for French farmers. It is also still here, and it ain't going away. Now, you may choose to fight it, you might try to work with it, but the one thing you can't do is ignore it, and then bitch about it later when it starts doing stuff you don't agree with. The best time to stop it doing something, or to influence it , is while stuff is still taking shape, because we don't get much say after it's all in place.
I don't bitch about it.
I prefer the metric system, it is rather good. I like buying motorcycle gear that is CE approved and may actually work. I like the fact my phone works everywhere and I don't get robbed for calls and SMS's (wish they would sort the data roaming out soon).
Imagine if some UK polititian got the UK involved in a war that nobody really agreed with that cost a lot of lives, money and misery.........oh hang on a minute :oops: If (in the unlikely event) the EU had gotten into that mess I'm pretty sure it would have been thunk through a little bit more dontyathink?
As far as I am concerned there is no more cr@p coming out of it than a national government would produce. Last time I checked most folks in UK where not massively impressed by the UK system and its resident polititians - I have had more bone national knee jerk laws impact me (in various countries) than anything the EU has ever imposed.
I would rather continue to focus (rather successfully) on paying the minimum amount of tax to whoever thinks they are running the show - they will all waste it on things I disagree with anyway.
I could always buy a farm in France....... :)
 
#20
"I don't bitch about it.
I prefer the metric system, it is rather good. I like buying motorcycle gear that is CE approved and may actually work. I like the fact my phone works everywhere and I don't get robbed for calls and SMS's (wish they would sort the data roaming out soon).
Imagine if some UK polititian got the UK involved in a war that nobody really agreed with that cost a lot of lives, money and misery.........oh hang on a minute If (in the unlikely event) the EU had gotten into that mess I'm pretty sure it would have been thunk through a little bit more dontyathink?
As far as I am concerned there is no more cr@p coming out of it than a national government would produce. Last time I checked most folks in UK where not massively impressed by the UK system and its resident polititians - I have had more bone national knee jerk laws impact me (in various countries) than anything the EU has ever imposed.
I would rather continue to focus (rather successfully) on paying the minimum amount of tax to whoever thinks they are running the show - they will all waste it on things I disagree with anyway.
I could always buy a farm in France....... "

I apologise for the phrase 'bitch about it.' Nothing personal, but I get a lot of complaints about EU obligations, and it's mostly from people who should have seen changes coming a mile off, and chose not to. Then they whinge when they arrive.
I agree that the EU has made many things safer, cleaner, and so on. But then, so could any free trade association. The risk here isn't that either one of our own politicians can launch us into a stupid war (God knows, we've done enough of those in our history. Compared to something like the Crimea, Blair looks professional.), or even that we, as part of an established alliance, can be dragged into someone else's war.
The issue is that at the moment, there is still scope for UK Forces to be used in support of UK Foreign policy, and vice versa. If the full EU Diplomatic structure gets going in support of an EU wide Foreign policy, then that may no longer hold true. If, in the interests of EU Foreign policy,
it is necessary to send an expeditionary force somewhere, who is going to go? France? or us? Who else has the gear and the experience? Are we going to be used as the EU's version of the French Foreign Legion to sort out all their little problems?
And what will we get out of it?
So, we might be used in support of EU policy. What happens if EU policy goes against us? If it is politically necessary for Gibraltar to be handed to Spain, or the Falklands to be ceded to Argentina, what veto do we have?

Politicans are a breed, not a nationality. They tend to be pretty much the same wherever you go. It's the eternal Civil Servants behind the scenes who make things happen,and they are creatures of regulation and routine. If you don't want THEM to make decisions on YOUR behalf, you have to get in amongst them early.

PS- Personally, I'd farm in Denmark. The beer is good, The girls are better looking, everyone speaks English, and they make more money farming than the French.
Although the land is cheaper in Bulgaria, the wine's as rough as a badgers' arrse.
 

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