The Dominic Cummings Appreciation Society.

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
If I am shown evidence that shows that Cummings has done no wrong, I’m happy to move on as BJ keeps saying we need to.
Thank goodness it works the other way round in this country, for now at least.

Again. What action do you believe Cummings has taken which isn't mitigated within the regulations? Why do you have such difficulty with this question?
 
Thank goodness it works the other way round in this country, for now at least.

Again. What action do you believe Cummings has taken which isn't mitigated within the regulations? Why do you have such difficulty with this question?
The more sophisticated debater had already moved the argument onto a position where cummings broke the spirit of the rules and also we are one big happy collective and this horrid man acted out of complete selfishness.

Its ironic, but parenting is about the most unselfish thing you can do in life. Others may see you walking out of work at 10am and feel jealous, not realising you might be stuck in gateshead casualty until 10pm, then have a sleepless night, whilst your detractor finished work, went to the gym, had a nice kip and is fresh as a daisy in the morning.

Cummings drove to Durham in the late evening, early hours of the morning and he didn't do that for laughs.
His wife, his child and himself were ill at differing stages over two weeks, but luckily for him they're managed in the cottage.

He didn't then sit back and have a skive for another week, but went back to work and his infamous test drive on country lanes is perfectly reasonable i.e. he picked a known spot to visit and return, taking the bairn with him.

Conclusions:-
Most criticism as I see it is selfish people sitting at home, whinging that they're wanted to do something themselves and couldn't i.e. ignoring another mans problems.
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
You didn't read my post. Or read it selectively to suit your own agenda. Weak. Are you BoJo or DC?
Your posts are becoming increasingly difficult to read.

There are some very simple questions which everything else then flows from, but you've consistently refused to answer them, which suggests that either you're exceedingly one-eyed or you have no experience of how disciplinary processes work. It's about questions of fact, not your moral outlook, and, days later, we are all still waiting patiently for you to explain the case against Cummings on the basis of the facts.

There are a couple of people on this thread who, if they're in any sort of managerial role, must spend a lot of time explaining themselves to employment tribunals and making enemies in the HR Department.
 
..snip..

He didn't then sit back and have a skive for another week, but went back to work and his infamous test drive on country lanes is perfectly reasonable i.e. he picked a known spot to visit and return, taking the bairn with him.

Conclusions:-
Most criticism as I see it is selfish people sitting at home, whinging that they're wanted to do something themselves and couldn't i.e. ignoring another mans problems.
Reasonable in your view, but entirely outside of what was permitted by the regulations in force at the time.

And indeed, this goes to the heart of the problem. The Government is now telling us what we must do for Test and Trace to work, but, of course, if individuals now decide it is not reasonable to isolate when told to, it is not going to work. Nice job, Dominic.
 
Reasonable in your view, but entirely outside of what was permitted by the regulations in force at the time.

And indeed, this goes to the heart of the problem. The Government is now telling us what we must do for Test and Trace to work, but, of course, if individuals now decide it is not reasonable to isolate when told to, it is not going to work. Nice job, Dominic.
That is an irrational view...... Dominic cummings is not an ordinary bloke, but the right hand of the PM. He is about to drive to london, which meets the essential persons test given his job, which is greater than a delivery driver clocking up similar miles.... So a test drive prior to that, would make reasonable sense.

What you seem to be arguing is its not ok to drive anywhere. If an RAF Liaison helicopter was sent to pick him up, would that have being ok with you ?
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
Reasonable in your view, but entirely outside of what was permitted by the regulations in force at the time.

And indeed, this goes to the heart of the problem. The Government is now telling us what we must do for Test and Trace to work, but, of course, if individuals now decide it is not reasonable to isolate when told to, it is not going to work. Nice job, Dominic.
Simply wrong. There have always been exceptions for vulnerable children and for dependants of essential workers. Why do you think that some schools have remained open to some extent during lock down?

“After schools shut their gates on Friday afternoon they will remain closed until further notice.

“This will be for all children except to those of key workers and children who are most vulnerable. The scientific advice shows that these settings are safe for this small number of children to continue attending, but asking others to stay away will go towards helping us the slow the spread of this virus."
- Gavin Williamson, House of Commons, March 18th.
 
Simply wrong. There have always been exceptions for vulnerable children and for dependants of essential workers. Why do you think that some schools have remained open to some extent during lock down?

“After schools shut their gates on Friday afternoon they will remain closed until further notice.

“This will be for all children except to those of key workers and children who are most vulnerable. The scientific advice shows that these settings are safe for this small number of children to continue attending, but asking others to stay away will go towards helping us the slow the spread of this virus."
- Gavin Williamson, House of Commons, March 18th.
What has key worker schooling got to do with the circumstances that Cummings had?
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
Attributed to Giles Brandreth
I steer clear of all controversy (it's not good for the digestion) but I do love an anagram & via the Chief Crossword Compiler for The Times I hear that a
Telegraph compiler has turned:
STAY ALERT; CONTROL THE VIRUS; SAVE LIVES ...
into:
EASILY SURVIVES TRAVEL NORTH TO CASTLE ...
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
What has key worker schooling got to do with the circumstances that Cummings had?
Because Lastwalt was clearly unaware that there are exemptions - of which key worker schooling was one, so I gave an example. There are also exemptions for the vulnerable.
 

daz

LE
Reasonable in your view, but entirely outside of what was permitted by the regulations in force at the time.
The regulations don't really have many hard definitions of what is or isn't permitted they say you have latitude to do a wide range of things provided it is "reasonable"


In Scotland that's on the defendant, In the civilised world it's on the prosecution as whoever drafted the English and Welsh regulations forgot to include the necessary wording to make the offences absolute...


Given that he was never stopped and asked and that fanny in the press isn't really evidence, and he says nothing under caution that's a bit tricky and I can't see a competent police officer bothering. If he wants it to go away he can offer to take a fixed penalty notice and pay it early for 30 quid... But it would be his public duty to string it out as long as possible, to maximise expense to the force in question, as a lesson in effective use of resources..
 
Good response Gove. Not.

 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
You need to stop eating cheese before you go to bed, it's giving you bad dreams. Whilst you're at it, knock off the brasso & drain cleaner cocktails. Even with a slice of potato and a brolly they're still not good for you.

Why is it you can't let Brexit go? You never stop banging on about it as if it hasn't been done and is something that can be reversed. Brexit has arrived - the UK is no longer a part of the EU.
Bad news, we are for at least the rest of the year.
It’s not me
Johnson has said Brexit is done. Yet the Brexit loonies are still bleating about sell out and Brexit in name only.
What’s the matter, you have a government majority and a cabinet packed full of Johnson supporting brexiters, don’t you trust them?

I hope they handle the Great Leap Forward a hell of a lot better than they’ve dealt with coronavirus.
 
That is an irrational view...... Dominic cummings is not an ordinary bloke, but the right hand of the PM. He is about to drive to london, which meets the essential persons test given his job, which is greater than a delivery driver clocking up similar miles.... So a test drive prior to that, would make reasonable sense.

What you seem to be arguing is its not ok to drive anywhere. If an RAF Liaison helicopter was sent to pick him up, would that have being ok with you ?
No, what is irrational is the argument that he is just too important to stick to the rules like everyone else.

He didn't initially drive to London, he drove to Barnard Castle for a jolly day out with his wife and child. If you find the excuse that was "testing his eyesight", and have somehow convinced yourself that this a rational thing to do, then I have a tin of magic beans to sell you.

What you seem to be arguing is its not ok to drive anywhere
Do you not understand that that is exactly what the regulations said, with some very specific exemptions? Not included in these specific exemptions were day trips to the countryside to "test your eyesight".

If an RAF Liaison helicopter was sent to pick him up, would that have being ok with you ?
What was wrong with the train, for example?
 
The regulations don't really have many hard definitions of what is or isn't permitted they say you have latitude to do a wide range of things provided it is "reasonable"


In Scotland that's on the defendant, In the civilised world it's on the prosecution as whoever drafted the English and Welsh regulations forgot to include the necessary wording to make the offences absolute...


Given that he was never stopped and asked and that fanny in the press isn't really evidence, and he says nothing under caution that's a bit tricky and I can't see a competent police officer bothering. If he wants it to go away he can offer to take a fixed penalty notice and pay it early for 30 quid... But it would be his public duty to string it out as long as possible, to maximise expense to the force in question, as a lesson in effective use of resources..
Civilised - that made me laugh out loud..... The PM throughout, has kept referring to common sense and he quite clearly does not enjoy locking down the nation hence the caveat of what a person deems as reasonable. The ruler of north britain on the other hand seems to be revellling in her newfound power.
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
(snip)

What was wrong with the train, for example?
Seriously? You want to crucify him for a trip to Barnard Castle with zero interactions but you're relaxed about him going to a railway station, getting on a train and then getting off the train at a London Terminal, walking through that terminal and then getting in a taxi or an official car?
 
No, what is irrational is the argument that he is just too important to stick to the rules like everyone else.

He didn't initially drive to London, he drove to Barnard Castle for a jolly day out with his wife and child. If you find the excuse that was "testing his eyesight", and have somehow convinced yourself that this a rational thing to do, then I have a tin of magic beans to sell you.


Do you not understand that that is exactly what the regulations said, with some very specific exemptions? Not included in these specific exemptions were day trips to the countryside to "test your eyesight".


What was wrong with the train, for example?
1. He did stick to the rules and you've failed to show otherwise.
2. Prove he was on a jolly ? otherwise that is speculation.
3. If a person who has self isolated for 14 days with covid and intends to drive back to london, one would actually assume at least a trip out somewhere, even to just get some petrol and check the car is ok.
 
Because Lastwalt was clearly unaware that there are exemptions - of which key worker schooling was one, so I gave an example. There are also exemptions for the vulnerable.
You are talking about a different part of the regulations. I've quoted them once before, and here they are again. Read them very carefully, then tell me which of the exceptions permits a 60 mile car journey to test your eyesight based on being a key worker or for the care of the vulnerable.

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020
Made at 1.00 p.m. on 26th March 2020
Laid before Parliament at 2.30 p.m. on 26th March 2020
Coming into force at 1.00 p.m. on 26th March 2020

Restrictions on movement
6.—(1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—

(a) to obtain basic necessities, including food and medical supplies for those in the same household (including any pets or animals in the household) or for vulnerable persons and supplies for the essential upkeep, maintenance and functioning of the household, or the household of a vulnerable person, or to obtain money, including from any business listed in Part 3 of Schedule 2;
(b )to take exercise either alone or with other members of their household;
(c) to seek medical assistance, including to access any of the services referred to in paragraph 37 or 38 of Schedule 2;
(d ) to provide care or assistance, including relevant personal care within the meaning of paragraph 7(3B) of Schedule 4 to the Safeguarding of Vulnerable Groups Act 2006(3), to a vulnerable person, or to provide emergency assistance;
(e) to donate blood;
(f) to travel for the purposes of work or to provide voluntary or charitable services, where it is not reasonably possible for that person to work, or to provide those services, from the place where they are living;
(g) to attend a funeral of—
(i) a member of the person’s household,
(ii) a close family member, or
(iii) if no-one within sub-paragraphs (i) or (ii) are attending, a friend;
(h) to fulfil a legal obligation, including attending court or satisfying bail conditions, or to participate in legal proceedings;
(i) to access critical public services, including—
(i) childcare or educational facilities (where these are still available to a child in relation to whom that person is the parent, or has parental responsibility for, or care of the child);
(ii) social services;
(iii) services provided by the Department of Work and Pensions;
(iv) services provided to victims (such as victims of crime);
(j) in relation to children who do not live in the same household as their parents, or one of their parents, to continue existing arrangements for access to, and contact between, parents and children, and for the purposes of this paragraph, “parent” includes a person who is not a parent of the child, but who has parental responsibility for, or who has care of, the child;
(k) in the case of a minister of religion or worship leader, to go to their place of worship;
(l) to move house where reasonably necessary;
(m )to avoid injury or illness or to escape a risk of harm.
(3) For the purposes of paragraph (1), the place where a person is living includes the premises where they live together with any garden, yard, passage, stair, garage, outhouse or other appurtenance of such premises.

(4) Paragraph (1) does not apply to any person who is homeless.

 
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