Army Rumour Service

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

The Brexit Consequences Thread

Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
How exactly have they been duplicitous?

As far as I'm aware, they said very clearly in 2016 that Britain would not get a better deal by leaving. They said (also very clearly) that if Britain wanted to keep access to the single market and customs union, then it needed to ensure regulatory alignment. They've kept saying it, all the way through. Their position hasn't changed.

And yet, David Davies, Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage et al all insisted that the EU was going to give us an excellent deal. That of course the German car manufacturers, or Spanish/French fishermen, would all pressure their Governments to give us the deal that the Brexiteers had promised.

Sorry, the only duplicitous types have been the ones who promised you the chocolate fountains and unicorns of a seamless Brexit. It certainly won't be as bad as the doomsayers feared, but it was never going be as good as the politicians promised you.

Take Gove; promising in 2016 that food standards would never, ever, drop, and that British farmers should be happy to vote for Brexit, and that they'd never have to compete with cheaper imports from countries that have lower standards for animal welfare or worse records for food safety. Then in 2020 voting against an amendment to the Agriculture Bill that would have kept him to his word, because obviously his word is good, and the amendment was completely unnecessary...
How have they been duplicitous? How about the meetings between Barnier and various Remainers, even though he knew that he could and should only negotiate with the elected government? You mention that their stance has never changed - how then can that be even close to being classed as negotiating. How about telling the UK that they can't cherry-pick the bits they want, then carry in to demand access to UK waters and try to dictate birders in Ireland? There are four years of evidence of EU duplicitousness - but you know all that, don't you!

You are reaching the stage of troll where you are posting not to advance the debate but to stifle it with matters gone over many times. Sooner we are shot of the EU the better - we might then get Remainers actually working for the benefit of this country instead of doing all they can to undermine it.
 

Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
If people feel so good about being in the EU they can always organise a party/movement to rejoin, bearing in mind that it would not be on the same membership we had when we left.

In which case they will be quite happy being the second highest country paying into it, for very little in return. They would be quite happy to having to join the Euro.
They would be quite happy being dictated how much state aid you can use.
They would be quite happy having the ECJ oversight.
And the many other things that I can't be arrsed adding to the list
They would also look very similar to the other non important politicians - the Lib Dems!
 

Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
How exactly have they been duplicitous?

As far as I'm aware, they said very clearly in 2016 that Britain would not get a better deal by leaving. They said (also very clearly) that if Britain wanted to keep access to the single market and customs union, then it needed to ensure regulatory alignment. They've kept saying it, all the way through. Their position hasn't changed.

And yet, David Davies, Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage et al all insisted that the EU was going to give us an excellent deal. That of course the German car manufacturers, or Spanish/French fishermen, would all pressure their Governments to give us the deal that the Brexiteers had promised.

Sorry, the only duplicitous types have been the ones who promised you the chocolate fountains and unicorns of a seamless Brexit. It certainly won't be as bad as the doomsayers feared, but it was never going be as good as the politicians promised you.

Take Gove; promising in 2016 that food standards would never, ever, drop, and that British farmers should be happy to vote for Brexit, and that they'd never have to compete with cheaper imports from countries that have lower standards for animal welfare or worse records for food safety. Then in 2020 voting against an amendment to the Agriculture Bill that would have kept him to his word, because obviously his word is good, and the amendment was completely unnecessary...
This article, albeit from a Brexit source, points out the mindset of the EU quite well

 
You mention that their stance has never changed - how then can that be even close to being classed as negotiating.

Because it's been totally open and utterly consistent? "If you want to stay in the single market and customs union, here are the rules for the other 27 countries, you're no different".

It's like expecting to "negotiate" with the Police: "Well, officer, I think I should be allowed rather more leeway on that breathalyser result - what do you mean you won't negotiate, that's just unreasonable! And you talked to my lawyer without me, that's duplicitous!"

You are reaching the stage of troll where you are posting not to advance the debate but to stifle it with matters gone over many times. Sooner we are shot of the EU the better - we might then get Remainers actually working for the benefit of this country instead of doing all they can to undermine it.

You invited anyone to give you one clear advantage of staying in the EU, declaring that there weren't any. I replied with "tariff and paperwork-free access to the Single Market". That's not trolling, it's just pointing out the obvious. If you just want to make statements and not have anyone contradict you, you're looking for an echo chamber rather than a debate.

All I've done is (politely) point out the flaws in the CO's Really Good Idea. It doesn't mean that I'm working to undermine the nation, it's hardly me "stifling the debate" when all I did was answer your question.

I've been steering clear of Brexit debates because of this exact kind of accusation. You made clear your belief that the EU was duplicitous, I put forward an alternative interpretation and explained my thinking, you disagreed with it, so fair enough, I'll wander off.
 
This article, albeit from a Brexit source, points out the mindset of the EU quite well


Too late, our Cabinet were discussing "Have cake and eat it" as a policy back in 2016, remember?

(Apologies for a link to the Guardian, but they're got a good picture of the notes concerned)

 

Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
Too late, our Cabinet were discussing "Have cake and eat it" as a policy back in 2016, remember?

(Apologies for a link to the Guardian, but they're got a good picture of the notes concerned)

Just goes to show that the government, even one under May, recognised the aims of the EU.!

Trouble is, the EU want the whole cake and just brush some crumbs at the UK!

But yet again, you knew that!!!
 

Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
To deal with this but from @Gravelbelly
You invited anyone to give you one clear advantage of staying in the EU, declaring that there weren't any. I replied with "tariff and paperwork-free access to the Single Market". That's not trolling, it's just pointing out the obvious. If you just want to make statements and not have anyone contradict you, you're looking for an echo chamber rather than a debate.
That is the aim of the FTA negotiations, which the EU are determined to upset, and even the tariffs are not wholly free as there are complications with goods brought in to manufacture here and no scheme, is paperwork free. And while we are in about tariffs, don't you feel quotas as handed out by the EU are in effect tariffs?

You carry on using that as what you see as a benefit of remaining in the EU, I'm sure you will find plenty to agree with you.
 

HCL

Old-Salt
You invited anyone to give you one clear advantage of staying in the EU, declaring that there weren't any. I replied with "tariff and paperwork-free access to the Single Market". That's not trolling, it's just pointing out the obvious. If you just want to make statements and not have anyone contradict you, you're looking for an echo chamber rather than a debate.

You believe the paying in excess of £9,000,000,000 a year for tarrif and paperwork-free access to the Single Market is acceptable? That you're happy to not spend British taxpayers' money on British taxpayers but instead give it - - free of conditions - - to competitors?

Brother, I have I got the deal of the millennium on this bridge for you...
 
You believe the paying in excess of £9,000,000,000 a year for tarrif and paperwork-free access to the Single Market is acceptable? That you're happy to not spend British taxpayers' money on British taxpayers but instead give it - - free of conditions - - to competitors?

Brother, I have I got the deal of the millennium on this bridge for you...
Or
bb.JPG
 

Truxx

LE
Too late, our Cabinet were discussing "Have cake and eat it" as a policy back in 2016, remember?

(Apologies for a link to the Guardian, but they're got a good picture of the notes concerned)

Yes yes.

We have seen all this and more, everything from WW3 to dogging in kent.

But what now for the EU? That is, after all, what this thread is all about.
 
How exactly have they been duplicitous?

As far as I'm aware, they said very clearly in 2016 that Britain would not get a better deal by leaving. They said (also very clearly) that if Britain wanted to keep access to the single market and customs union, then it needed to ensure regulatory alignment. They've kept saying it, all the way through. Their position hasn't changed.

And yet, David Davies, Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage et al all insisted that the EU was going to give us an excellent deal. That of course the German car manufacturers, or Spanish/French fishermen, would all pressure their Governments to give us the deal that the Brexiteers had promised.

Sorry, the only duplicitous types have been the ones who promised you the chocolate fountains and unicorns of a seamless Brexit. It certainly won't be as bad as the doomsayers feared, but it was never going be as good as the politicians promised you.

Take Gove; promising in 2016 that food standards would never, ever, drop, and that British farmers should be happy to vote for Brexit, and that they'd never have to compete with cheaper imports from countries that have lower standards for animal welfare or worse records for food safety. Then in 2020 voting against an amendment to the Agriculture Bill that would have kept him to his word, because obviously his word is good, and the amendment was completely unnecessary...
I fail to see what has been so attractive. Time and again the EU has trumpeted it’s control, we’ve recently seen it fall apart at the seams. I’ve even shown a clip where Juncker has shown that it’s about front. There’s nothing there.
If the deal we had was so Brilliant, why did Cameron try to get a better one.
As to the single market argument, it doesn’t hold water, we pay for something that already exists , nothing has ever prevented us trading apart from war and even then not totally, certainly not the existence of the EU. Who has offered us unicorns and chocolate? You ‘ve been held by a classic protection scam.
 
How exactly have they been duplicitous?

This ring any bells?

"From the very beginning, the EU offer has been a Canada+++ deal. Much further-reaching on trade, internal security and foreign policy cooperation. This is a true measure of respect. And this offer remains in place.", Charles Michel, October 2018

We remain ready to offer the UK an ambitious partnership: a trade agreement that includes in particular fishing, and includes a level playing field with a country that has a very particular proximity – a unique territorial and economic closeness, which is why it can’t be compared to Canada or South Korea or Japan,Michel Barnier, Feb 2020
 
Last edited:

WightMivvi

Old-Salt
I've been steering clear of Brexit debates because of this exact kind of accusation. You made clear your belief that the EU was duplicitous, I put forward an alternative interpretation and explained my thinking, you disagreed with it, so fair enough, I'll wander off.
I agree that throwing around accusations is counter-productive. I also agree that politicians on the Leave side if the debate have been economical with the truth, as have politicians on the Remain side.

I noticed early on in the Referendum that there is no accusation that one side can make that the other side can’t throw back just as hard. There are no killer facts, just interpretations.

This means the debate comes down to our personal feelings, perspectives and experiences. That doesn’t make us bad or ignorant or trolls.

However, as a Leaver, I got totally fed up with the tidal wave of hatred and invective that came our way, and I was appalled by the desire to rip up democracy that many Remainers had.

This means one of the Brexit consequences (well, more of a Remain consequence) is an increased intolerance to those who appear to be continuity remainers. No matter how logical or strong your feel your arguments are, no one cares and no one is going to listen to you..

You feel that we are going to hell in a a handcart. Fair enough. We’ll cope. The alternative (giving a victory to tantrum-throwing, immature, hate-spewing, lie-sharing bunch of anti-democratic Brit haters) would be far worse and destructive to the country.
 
I agree that throwing around accusations is counter-productive. I also agree that politicians on the Leave side if the debate have been economical with the truth, as have politicians on the Remain side.

I noticed early on in the Referendum that there is no accusation that one side can make that the other side can’t throw back just as hard. There are no killer facts, just interpretations.

This means the debate comes down to our personal feelings, perspectives and experiences. That doesn’t make us bad or ignorant or trolls.

However, as a Leaver, I got totally fed up with the tidal wave of hatred and invective that came our way, and I was appalled by the desire to rip up democracy that many Remainers had.

This means one of the Brexit consequences (well, more of a Remain consequence) is an increased intolerance to those who appear to be continuity remainers. No matter how logical or strong your feel your arguments are, no one cares and no one is going to listen to you..

You feel that we are going to hell in a a handcart. Fair enough. We’ll cope. The alternative (giving a victory to tantrum-throwing, immature, hate-spewing, lie-sharing bunch of anti-democratic Brit haters) would be far worse and destructive to the country.
A good recent example of lying, cheating, remain politicians (and not being challenged on their lies by the MSM) is this statement by Mr Benn:

"Labour MP and Chair of the Brexit Select Committee Hilary Benn told Times Radio that the idea of an “Australian-style deal” was nonsense:

“There isn’t such a thing as an Australian–style deal because it’s just trading on World Trade Organisation terms, you might as well call it a Somalia style deal or an Afghanistan style deal. It’s nonsense.”
Completely unchallenged by the interviewer.
In fact, there are – according to the EU database – 86 treaties with Australia. Some on specific issues, others cover broader areas like human rights. The UK has already made agreements to cover aviation, haulage, nuclear matters and other areas. Australia’s 86 EU treaties are not nonsense, they’re a rational basis for international relations."

 
Huzzah!
Celebrate, brave Brexiteers!


"A big day for the Department for International Trade today as Liz Truss signs the UK’s first trade deal as an independent country for decades. The Japan deal was agreed in principle over a month ago, however was formally signed this morning at a ceremony in Tokyo. "
 
You feel that we are going to hell in a handcart. Fair enough. We’ll cope.
No, I agree that we'll cope. It will all work out, somehow; although there will be the occasional screwup, a few big screwups, general nausea, and some stuff will be a PITA. I'm lucky, I'm far from living on the financial edge.

The most I can work up is disappointment at people acting surprised when they're confronted with things that were painfully obvious, years ago (e.g. customs border between UK and NI; visas). I mean, Boris Johnson being big ambition, little competence, all bluff? No surprise there, the Garden Bridge proved that one years ago; Jennifer Arcuri was just another integrity failure, in a long line of them... Shake head, and mumble "No sh!t, Sherlock".

Being north of the border, I had practice when preparing myself for the possibility of an SNP referendum win (unfortunately, round two is looming if there are Brexit economic f***ups that can be spun into "disaster for Scotland"; the SNP will demand a rerun, and campaign to take us out of the UK and in to the EU). That, to me, was always a more likely "hell in a handcart" outcome (smaller economy, less credible claims of economic viability), but even then I was preparing myself for "them's the breaks, time to just get on with it" in the face of people getting really quite overwrought on the subject.

I also agree that Europe will continue to be a convenient whipping boy for any Westminster populist who wants to find someone to whip up hatred against, or to excuse their own screwups. I fully expect "it would have been great, if the corrupt tax-avoiders hadn't dragged us out of the EU" alongside "it would have been fantastic, but the evil lying EU was punishing us for our bravery" every time a Government Minister stands at the Despatch Box to explain an inevitable screwup, for decades to come.

The alternative (giving a victory to tantrum-throwing, immature, hate-spewing, lie-sharing bunch of anti-democratic Brit haters) would be far worse and destructive to the country.
So long as you weren't including me in that...
 
Last edited:

New Posts

Latest Threads

Top