the break up of the United Kingdom

should the devolution be stopped dead ?

  • yes , scrap it and reincorporate the Scots back into the UK parliament

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Independence for the Scots now !

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • leave the Scottish parliament as it is

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
#1
i know i take the p1ss out fo the Scots as much as they do with us English, however i have read the Daily mail and have found a worrying trend that anti-English feeling has edged toward violence and racism against English residents. it's gone beyond banter.

im not trying to sound alarmist but it seems to be going that way, i have always believed devolution was a bad idea, however if the Scots do want to become independent and go their own way, I wish them well, i personally believe we are greater than the sum of our parts as a United Kingdom.

if they become Independent , border fences and custom posts may be created with different passports currency etc

i have found the article online for you to look at off the Daily mail website, i had to register to get it, its a bit long but worth it.

i have included a poll to see what you think.

I grow more fearful that devolution will lead to the break-up of the UK
by Stephen Glover

11:32am 15th June 2006

New labourites still claim some achievements.

One of them is Scottish devolution. According to them, the Union has been stabilised, and the Scottish Nationalists have been eclipsed by a Lab-Lib administration that may rule in perpetuity.

The Scots, we are told, no longer hanker after independence. They are mostly comfortable with the large measure of self-government which constitutional change has brought. Nor are they as chippy as they once were about their English neighbours. Devolution has made them far happier in themselves.

Can this really be true? An Englishman living in Scotland displayed the St George's flag outside his house by way of identifying with England's World Cup team. His windows were smashed. The same man says that abuse was also hurled at him when he went down to his local shops in Coatbridge, Lanarkshire, wearing an England strip.

He partly blames Scotland's First Minister, Jack McConnell, who has pointedly said that he does not support England in the World Cup. (Scotland did not reach the finals.) He will be rooting for Trinidad and Tobago in this evening's match with England. So, according to some opinion polls, will two-thirds of Scots. As a result of Mr McConnell's remarks, 60 chartered surveyors from England have cancelled a two-day conference at a Scottish hotel.

It was ever thus, you may say. A Scottish friend of mine claims he was the only person not supporting the Germans in a rowdy Glasgow pub during the 1966 World Cup final. Every time the Germans scored, there was joy unbounded, and at the final whistle general gnashing of teeth. Until they were banned because of unruly behaviour, the annual England-Scotland football matches were bitterly fought contests.

And yet I can't A help feeling that the current anti-England feeling in Scotland is somehow Much more than 40 years ago, football has become a focus for nationalist feeling. If the majority of Scots really want England's opponents to win, they are surely saying something important about their attitude to their major partner in the Union. Far from making them more relaxed about the English, as New Labour predicted, devolution has tended to harden old attitudes.

Nor are the increasingly antipathetic feelings only on one side. When England won the World Cup in 1966, the Union Flag was proudly waved by the majority of fans. Like the Tory prime minister Lord Salisbury, they thought of England when they thought of Britain, and hardly distinguished between the two. Now their successors who frantically wave and display the St George's flag are plainly thinking only of England, and celebrating their Englishness rather than their Britishness.

For a diehard Unionist such as myself, this aggressive expression of English nationalism is almost as disquieting as anti-English feeling in Scotland. Devolution is driving us farther apart. Whenever I visit Scotland, I am amazed by how self-preoccupied the country has become. It has its own government and parliament (however despised it may be) which legislates on most matters affecting ordinary Scottish people. London is increasingly irrelevant.

As for the English, they are more and more resentful of being governed by Scotsmen, and in particular of the right of Scottish MPs to legislate on English matters, while English MPs have no reciprocal powers in Scotland. This is the fatal flaw at the heart of the devolution settlement, sustained for the low political reason that New Labour has sometimes to depend on the votes of Scottish MPs to enact its English legislation.

We should scarcely be surprised that ill-will is building up on both sides. In invoking Britishness — and stressing that he is supporting England during the World Cup — Gordon Brown is attempting to breathe life into a Union which New Labour has done so much to undermine. I would not be at all surprised if he turned out to be a casualty of rising anti-Scottish feeling in England. But Mr Brown must look after himself; I mourn only for my disintegrating country.

What a tragedy this is! The Union has been one the great achievements of history. The sum of Great Britain has always been greater than its parts. The Little Englander journalists who spit bile against the Scots should remember what Scotland has contributed — and in particular that during most British conflicts, culminating in the two world wars, the Scots have proportionately paid more dearly in blood.

How wonderful it would be if, instead of there being an English team in Germany, there British one, uniting us rather than dividing us. In fact, there was a British football team at the 1912 Olympics, and will be again if the Olympic committee has its way. But too much water has passed under the bridge for such a team now to have much significance.

Rather than console ourselves with unrealisable fantasies, we must confront what is happening. A Labour-dominated Scottish administration finds itself increasingly out of kilter with the New Labour regime in London. (It is also even more inept and corrupt.) When Labour falls from power in England, it will be the Tories who gain; but when it is toppled in Scotland, the Scottish nationalists are likely to be the beneficiaries. The system of proportional representation was designed to prevent them from ever commanding an absolute majority, but no sensible person would bet against such an outcome happening. Independence might very well follow.

Scotland was no doubt already drifting away from England, but devolution, with its wholesale handing over of powers, has quickened the process. Now that cannot be undone. The only possible remedy to the increasing friction between the two countries is to end the right of Scottish MPs to vote on English matters. That would remove a grievance which even most Scottish people recognise. If Gordon Brown were really concerned with maintaining the Union, he would attend to this blatant inequity rather than offering us empty words about Britishness.

All the same, I wonder whether such reform would be enough. Maybe we could continue to rub along in an unhappy relationship. The Scots have sometimes been unloved in England since the Union — 300 years old next year — and vice-versa. Perhaps there are still more things that bind the two nations than we think. Or sheer inertia might keep us together.

But looking at the mean-minded hostility of many Scots towards the England football team, as well as the resurgence of English nationalism, it is difficult to be hopeful. Some profound re-shaping of national identity is taking place. I grow more and more fearful that sooner or later, just as the Tories always prophesied, Labour's trumpeted legacy of devolution will lead to the break-up of the United Kingdom.
 
#2
I'm welsh, and I'm supporting England! I think it's ludicrous to cheer for the other side especially when in so many other things like the olympics etc we are more than happy to display pride in olympic winners that more often than not are english!
i also class myself as BRITISH on forms and as far as wales's little assembly goes i find it pointless and under-achieving, granted we do not have the level of control as what the scottish parliament does, but i think it's a pointless token venture, and we should be governed by westminster ful stop! it's a waste of money.
 
#3
I have great sympathy with the view in the article. I believe the break up of the union would leave us all worse off. However I do beleive that devolution can not be undone. I also think the West Lothian question must be resolved. The difficulty is that by not allowing Scottish MPs to vote on Emglish issues is that there will be occasions (in the future) when the Gov't will not have a majority in Westminster...who then writes legislation for Engalnd? Perhaps we need a Federal Gov't based in Westminster and English elswhere ...the trouble is I do not want to pay any more tax to fund a building to meet the need...since the Scottish one, while splendid, was f*cking expensive.

The recent upsurge in anti Englishness is beginning to irritate me which is a real shame because I have always found Scots very hospitable and have enjoyed my many trips to Scotland. I think once the football is over...which seems to make many right minded males bizarrely tribal than the situation will become calmer.

Edited for p*ssed fingers.
 
#4
I watched the 6 nations finals in a bar in Dublin this year. All the Welsh & Scots were cheering Ireland against England. When I spoke to a few of them (ladies & gents) they all agreed that they despised England and the English. When asked why the answer was the English are right up their own arrses and full of themselves.
 
#5
...and I always thought it was the English who hated a winner
 
#6
yes I'm afraid that is the general concensus - however, not all of us are like that! i'm very proud of my country's history, and by that i mean britain (england et al) and don't have any ill feeling towards the english! my fella is froop yorkshire and my unborn baby thus half english. the majority of ill feeling in wales comes from the little enclosed billages and towns, as opposed to the cities and towns in the industrialised south! i have more contempt for the backward hicks that think that english are scum than i do for any english man (except maybe tony blair hehe)
 
#8
I can see some advantages in devolution due to Scotlands different legal and education system, but not enough to make the parliament worth it, it is just another layer of red tape and the my biggest fear is that the SNP will be the biggest party next time round and if so will they go through with their referendum on independence. The break up of the Union would be bad for all of us.

I am supporting England in the world cup why not. It just annoys me that so many other Jocks don't.
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#9
It's wrong that anyone should be subjected to such treatment, despite the exchanges on this site, most of which are in 'squaddie humour' and can be percieved by some as deeply insulting.
What I will say though is that the Daily Mail is exceptional in it's anti Scots sentiment, right down to printing letters which tell the reader that they are 'sick of hearing the Scottish accent'. Every chance they get, they have a dig at the Scottish. The contents of that paper border on incitement to hatred and it comes down to one or two anti Scottish journailsts. They despise the fact that Blair has surrounded himself with Scots and they attempt to sway English opinion by drumming up hatred for its neighbour. It's the same in Scotland with the Scottish Daily Record. For some of the people who write for and to that paper, you'd think that Culloden Moor happened last week (little bit like the saga of the Boyne which gets an airing every summer over the water). I've had English colleagues tell me horror stories of thier kids getting a hard time at Scottish schools and I've also had stories of the opposite, where English kids thoroughly enjoyed being at Scots schools. My wife is English and both of my daughters were born here. Two weeks ago I went to JJB sports and bought, two English football tops, two St George duffle bags and a host of other English stuff. The lad behind the counter had a great laugh at the fact a Scot was willingly and without a gun at his head, buying English football kit. Whilst there is a Saltire on the rear window of my car, both rear passenger windows display 'Forever England' stickers. I have no idea what other motorists make of it, but my neighbours find it amusing. I have bloke who lives over the back who is currently flying a very large St Georges flag up against my fence. There's no need for it to be flown where it is and it is there only to 'wind me' up. Sadly it has had no effect. I live in England and you can fly your national flag where and when you wish as far as I am concerned. I actually sat in my back garden last week and discussed the story of St George and the Dragon, good and evil, with both of my kids. My neighbour could hear me of that I am aware. Must have surprised him.

I've heard all the insults about my nationality from the English and I've hurled some back. Name calling, that's what most of it is. But it shouldn't get down to this level. I remember when I first joined up, being embarrassed in shops by English counter staff telling me that they wouldn't accept my Scottish £10 note as it was 'foreign money'. I've met small mindedness in many people, both Scots and English. The old style banter is still there, but is being taken advantage of by people such as journailsts who should know better. As for 'squaddie humour', well we do take it a bit far sometimes. But as long as we can remember that, we can continue as we are.

This may be a matter of life and death for some, but FFS it's a game of football lads. That's all.

I watched TV yesterday in abject embarrassment at half a dozen bearded Scots lunatics belting on drums and shouting about T & T. Most of them looked like they could have done with a good wash. Scotland doesn't need that crap, but it was exploited the English media and served only to stoke the fires.

Now some of you English folk need to get a good deep fried pizza down you and relax. The UK will not break up just because the insults are getting tougher to handle.
 
#10
It all comes back to the West Lothian question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Lothian_Question

If devolution is to continue, then things have to be on a level playing field. We continually have MP's at Westmister with Scottish constituancies, voting on purely English matters. Yet the MP's with their constituancies in England have no say on purely Scottish matters.

To be honest, I don't really care if the Jocks want full independance. Let them have it. Only thing is, don't come bleating to me about wanting any of my money through my taxes to keep your country from going bust! Perhaps you'll be able to get some money from the Frogs! You are always going on about the "Auld Alliance". If you love 'em so much, piss off through the tunnel, just don't stop in my country on the way!

The union has worked well for many years, why destroy it? Jocks, you just want your cake and eat it! It all swings and roundabouts. Stop your whining, and stop biting the hand that feeds you.

Good grief more clihes than soft mick. I must improve my prose!
 
#12
Biscuits_AB said:
And this sort of post doesn't help you either.
Funny isn't it. All we ever hear is hostilty from the Scotts directed toward the English. As soon as the English retaliate, we are in the wrong.

I started a thread in the Naafi about chav towns. I have spent many a miserable hour in Blackpool where my family have a small business. For most of the season Blackpool is full of Scots just moaning about how much better the food/the weather/the accommodation/the beer/the women/the pubs etc etc are up in Scotland. Don't belive me? Just go up there and listen. Don't say anything, just listen. It's revealing.

I fully understand that many Scots feel that they have the rough end of the stick in life. I'm sorry about that. Genuinely. However, don't expect to bad mouth me and my country and get away with it. I won't take that sort of thing lying down.

The truth is you have a super country, and super people, but your inbuilt bitterness to the English just colours your judgement.

I truly belive in the union, and I have, despite my earlier post, no animosity towards Scotland or it's people. I'm just fed up of your continuous moaning.
 

Auld-Yin

ADC
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
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#13
Biscuits - you are beginning to worry me. Here you are writing absolute sense (for once :wink: )

You are quite correct in that, and certainly in my mind, that this is banter between 2 neighbouring nations. It does not matter where you are in the world you will always get the nutters, hence the broken windows. Mind you, I have often found that when this happens to one person it is usually because of their personality rather than nationality. I bet that there are English people living not very far from the guy who had his windows put in, who have had no trouble at all.

As you so rightly put it, this is really banter between English and Scots and when it comes to the real world and the need to stick together becomes apparant then Scots and English work very well together, as do the Welsh and Irish. Just look at the British Army in Iraq, all 4 (5 if you include RoI) sets of countrymen and women working together towards the common goal.

Let's just get on with the world cup (and our banter).

As to the break up of the UK - we are kind of attached to each other, with the slight exception of NI so I can't see this happening.

AY

p.s. Does anyone know who Sven will be supporting on 20 June in Koln at 2000 hours :twisted:
 
#14
I don't think the Jocks do want independence. I certainly consider myself to be British. True there are a few hard liners who want it - Sean Connery for example but has he is a cock and a tax exile living overseas his opinion is of no consequence. Whenever I fill in a form which asks for my nationality or ethnicity I always enter 'British (Scot).'

Besides. what would you soft English ponces do without us?

Biscuits_AB. As a young soldier I had simelar experience with my 'foreign money' in a fish and chip shop. I simply said fair enough and left without paying taking the food with me.
 
#15
Lairdx said:
Biscuits_AB. As a young soldier I had simelar experience with my 'foreign money' in a fish and chip shop. I simply said fair enough and left without paying taking the food with me.
Nice one Lairdx! I used to get similar problems with Ulster Bank & Northern Bank notes. I just used to say "Whose head is on it you dumb tw*t!" It generally had the desired effect :D
 

AlienFTM

MIA
Book Reviewer
#16
Why is there no poll option for England to devolve from the UK and leave the Sweaties to make their own way?!?!?
 
#17
interesting posts from the scots / n.i /welsh crowd. but most english residents want there own parliment without scots ,welsh, n.i mp's sticking there noses into english affairs. plus all laughs aside . your bleeding the english tax payer dry . your living beyond your means. its in englands interest if the union was dissolved from a financial point of view and is a topic you hear in bars all over england . the northern ireland fiasco . 4 years the mp's from northern ireland have been sitting in westminster getting fat on £140,000 a year and doing nothing . what a scandal .only in the uk . thats why the majority of english people would vote n.i out of the union tomorrow if a referendum was held in england . and they are moaning about there rates being brought into line with the rest of uk. they are only british when its in their interest .spongers the lot of you :p
 
#19
evetta said:
thats a bit unfair lol
the n.i bunch come on here and start a political thread to stir the s*h*i*t*e . they are good at that . the place is a cesspit of corruption and lies. *british when it pleases them * wouldnt trust one as far as i could spit :roll:
 
#20
Andyroo said:
Nice one Lairdx! I used to get similar problems with Ulster Bank & Northern Bank notes. I just used to say "Whose head is on it you dumb tw*t!" It generally had the desired effect :D
When I try that with Canadian money, I get arrested... :oops: :D

sm.
 

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