The Bible

No Loofkar, this is not why I did my BD. I began to study the Scriptures and their interpretation whilst relaxing during my RGN training (Registered General Nurse) and found that I had a great liking and small talent for Theology. So I took my degree, but to hone my understanding and develop my critical faculties.

I agree about the vast sums spent on buildings and the like though; where is this money during times of human need? My home denomination is Welsh Independent, so we have no riches (in fact my family chapel has become a chapel of rest, i.e. a funeral home, the congregation being mostly dead, their descendants either having left the faith - or never having taken it up - or gone to one of the livelier denominations) but I will not presume to lecture the High Churches on where to invest their money.
I do disagree on your point on rationality versus sanity, though.

DnD: with freedom comes responsibility. "Do as thou wilt shalt be the whole of the law" was Al Crowley. Not a pleasant man by most people's standards.
 
Well that was unexpected, but with BTB we now have the christian equivalent of HB. Interesting.
 
Your comment on the over liberal use of the word "insanity" is justifiable however, that said, the incontrovertible fact remains - the adoption of religious beliefs in the supernatural or myths marks the point of
departure from rationality. There is no room for confusion on this issue indeed it is a matter of integrity.
The rest of the post I liked, but this raised a question. It seems that you see rationality as the desirable way ahead, please correct me if I am wrong.
But surely a large part of our make up is intuitive and simply non -rational, so therefore we would be denying part of our make up as human.

I'm not using this to justify religion at all, in fact the opposite as an intuitive look at scripture should be mandatory rather than simple reliance on faith and belief in what someone told me.
 
Another member here called Jesus a non observing Jew; he was the most observing of the lot, but his observance was along the lines of "I desire mercy, not sacrifice". (See Matthew 9:13).
This means that our actions towards others around us outweigh in importance our adherence to ritual and regulation - vastly so.
You talk about those who choose to have faith, and I agree wholeheartedly with that comment in bold. However to take a quote from Thomas;
(1) “If those who lead you say to you: ‘Look, the kingdom is in the sky!’ then the birds of the sky will precede you.
(2) If they say to you: ‘It is in the sea,’ then the fishes will precede you.
(3) Rather, the kingdom is inside of you and outside of you.”
(4) “When you come to know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will realize that you are the children of the living Father.
(5) But if you do not come to know yourselves, then you exist in poverty, and you are poverty.”


Again the bold, something that is prevalent in other belief systems and very much so in esoteric tradition and practice. Written at Delphi was "Know thyself". To understand our nature and therefore our origin means that we know that harming another is harming ourselves in the long run. That attributed to Jesus would seem to indicate gnosis rather than faith as the path to take, which certainly fits with my understanding, and ultimately precludes religion.
That's my take anyway.
 
Hmmm. As I've often said, I'm too busy worrying about trying to show God's love in a practical way to worry about interpreting fairly obscure parts of the Bible and building a worldview on it. I'm not sure Btb is actually showing fundamentalist traits, but I certainly wouldn't be majoring on those.
You have been exposed to the same mind disease. Talk of "god's love" is stomach churning nonsense indicative of your sickness. Your religion and indeed all religions infect children who develop abnormal and often dangerous mentality, spreading and sustained systematically through carriers of the disease like you. There are no gods!
 
I have been enjoying visiting this site for a while, breaking cover only occasionally to make some harmless comment or other. I would not normally become involved in a debate like this, because I am not a good enough person, let alone example of my faith, to do it proper justice. But I feel moved to say something.

To the unbelievers:
Of course you are free to believe or not, as you see fit; this way is best, as there is surely no virtue in compulsion - for either side. Another member here called Jesus a non observing Jew; he was the most observing of the lot, but his observance was along the lines of "I desire mercy, not sacrifice". (See Matthew 9:13).
This means that our actions towards others around us outweigh in importance our adherence to ritual and regulation - vastly so.
Now, your attitudes to those who choose to have faith; we shall never meet, and I am unsure that any of you are qualified to assess my mental health - whereas I have some training and experience in some aspects of assessment, but would not dream of judging you at a distance like this. I am sorry to say that your constant rebuke on these grounds ("insanity") is nothing short of pig ignorance.
Gloating about the near destruction of that magnificent edifice, Notre Dame? Just look again at the crowds gathered to pray and sing. Such a building is not the "House of God", but a focal point for a faith community, a place to gather in fellowship and reverence. And so they did. Even in the process of seemingly being lost, it fulfilled its purpose.
Finally, the Scriptures mistranslated? Oh dear. Did I then waste the best few years of my entire life mastering the intricacies of Koine Greek, the subtlety and poetry of Biblical Hebrew, Aramaic, and Ancient Syriac, in (successful) pursuit of my Bachelor of Divinity Degree? Obviously, I am only one of many.

Now some of my fellow believers:
"Look what big letters I make as I [type] with my own hand:"

FOR SHAME ON YOU!

Yes, right now I am ashamed to call some of you siblings. To warn others of impending judgement, well, we do believe in that. But it is a most inferior kind of evangelism. To wish Hell upon others, or to consign them there - who do you think you are? Whose tokhis is big enough to occupy the Divine Judgement Seat? Those who believe are of the opinion that a certain entity already tried that, and you ought to know whom I mean and what trouble ensued. This all too glib and fluent throwing around of promises of perdition is unchristian - we are in no way qualified to stand in place of God in matters like these.
I heard many years ago that one should never preach Hell unless one could only do so with a tear in one's eye. This is sound advice.

To all of you:
I name no names; should you recognise your behaviour here, then I urge you to think again, if only for decency's sake.
I'll cut the crap. You are also sick mate...
 
Hmmm. As I've often said, I'm too busy worrying about trying to show God's love in a practical way to worry about interpreting fairly obscure parts of the Bible and building a worldview on it
Just follow the golden rule as allegedly laid down by The G man:
Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself.

It pretty much covers everything. Add in "don't be a dick" and you're sorted.
 
I have been enjoying visiting this site for a while, breaking cover only occasionally to make some harmless comment or other. I would not normally become involved in a debate like this, because I am not a good enough person, let alone example of my faith, to do it proper justice. But I feel moved to say something.

To the unbelievers:
Of course you are free to believe or not, as you see fit; this way is best, as there is surely no virtue in compulsion - for either side. Another member here called Jesus a non observing Jew; he was the most observing of the lot, but his observance was along the lines of "I desire mercy, not sacrifice". (See Matthew 9:13).
This means that our actions towards others around us outweigh in importance our adherence to ritual and regulation - vastly so.
Now, your attitudes to those who choose to have faith; we shall never meet, and I am unsure that any of you are qualified to assess my mental health - whereas I have some training and experience in some aspects of assessment, but would not dream of judging you at a distance like this. I am sorry to say that your constant rebuke on these grounds ("insanity") is nothing short of pig ignorance.
Gloating about the near destruction of that magnificent edifice, Notre Dame? Just look again at the crowds gathered to pray and sing. Such a building is not the "House of God", but a focal point for a faith community, a place to gather in fellowship and reverence. And so they did. Even in the process of seemingly being lost, it fulfilled its purpose.
Finally, the Scriptures mistranslated? Oh dear. Did I then waste the best few years of my entire life mastering the intricacies of Koine Greek, the subtlety and poetry of Biblical Hebrew, Aramaic, and Ancient Syriac, in (successful) pursuit of my Bachelor of Divinity Degree? Obviously, I am only one of many.

Now some of my fellow believers:
"Look what big letters I make as I [type] with my own hand:"

FOR SHAME ON YOU!

Yes, right now I am ashamed to call some of you siblings. To warn others of impending judgement, well, we do believe in that. But it is a most inferior kind of evangelism. To wish Hell upon others, or to consign them there - who do you think you are? Whose tokhis is big enough to occupy the Divine Judgement Seat? Those who believe are of the opinion that a certain entity already tried that, and you ought to know whom I mean and what trouble ensued. This all too glib and fluent throwing around of promises of perdition is unchristian - we are in no way qualified to stand in place of God in matters like these.
I heard many years ago that one should never preach Hell unless one could only do so with a tear in one's eye. This is sound advice.

To all of you:
I name no names; should you recognise your behaviour here, then I urge you to think again, if only for decency's sake.
Fućk off, you quim.
 
Well that was unexpected, but with BTB we now have the christian equivalent of HB. Interesting.
There is no christian equivalent ya pillock. Like saying that facts and fiction have equal validity and claiming that being extremely right is a bad form of extremism...:roll:
 
my Bachelor of Divinity Degree?
Well done you, a few years of your life spent delving into a man made concept, that has no validity, provenance, or real grasp of modern life, a set or rules that were formulated to control and subjugate the ignorant masses, by those savvy enough to profit from ancient illogical fears and prejudices over 2000 years ago, apart from the basic "Do Not" laws, the rest is now today irrelevant, wars will still kill millions of innocents, the weather will still kill more millions, and man made catastrophes many more, irrespective of some unseen higher authority, You had no comprehension of life before birth, and the same after you die. Not one person in tens of thousands of years of mans existence has returned from death with any hard and solid proof that a god, in any form exists. You can believe in anything your hearts desire, if it calms you, comforts you, and helps you in your daily pursuits, then good luck with that, you will still die, as we all will, after that who really cares? except your next of kin. I abide by the laws and rules of state. I do not need or require another level of intrusive control in my now retired life....... Religion is for those that cannot face-cope with reality......I wish you well. END
P.S.
Seen on a toilet wall on a university campus..... "For A degree in divinity & media studies, tear off below"
 
There is no christian equivalent ya pillock. Like saying that facts and fiction have equal validity and claiming that being extremely right is a bad form of extremism...:roll:
Gentle wind up, knew you'd bite. :applaud:

Mind you do leave yourself open to it. It's not about fact or fiction but attitude, you are both right no questions and he wishes all the non-believers here to Hell while you wish that the religious wipe each other out. Difficult to see much of a difference in attitude whatever the provenance of the position.
 
The rest of the post I liked, but this raised a question. It seems that you see rationality as the desirable way ahead, please correct me if I am wrong.
But surely a large part of our make up is intuitive and simply non -rational, so therefore we would be denying part of our make up as human.

I'm not using this to justify religion at all, in fact the opposite as an intuitive look at scripture should be mandatory rather than simple reliance on faith and belief in what someone told me.

I accept that a large part of our makeup is not based on rationality. We are also conditioned to the ‘nth degree by family, religion, surroundings, culture etc. I don’t think that discerning between rational and non-rational motivation for the choices we make necessarily entails denying part of our makeup. It’s just important to maintain a measure of objective awareness, by discerning between what is rational and what is solely belief based and not substantiated.

Whoever thought up the Mosaic religions realized that high ideals are simply not enough. Somehow the ideals and ethics have to be established among the chaos of primitive human society. Their way of doing this was to exploit natural fears and aspirations and create heroes and superheroes and tales of mythological feats. Well they succeeded. I believe Western society pretty much exists on the firmament created by Judeo-Christian culture.

My point is that the mythology and irrational beliefs that were used to help get people to kowtow are no longer necessary - the values and ethics have been established and are no dependent on religion. In fact the mythology has become an obstacle to development, as it serves to confuse and distract from the wonder of existence and the universe itself.

How base must one’s consciousness be to have to need to believe that a radical, spiritually inspired thinker who stood up for his morals and inspired so many others was holy because of tricks such as turning water into wine, walking on a lake and being born of a virgin mother? And yet these are widely held beliefs and doctrines.
 
Your comment on the over liberal use of the word "insanity" is justifiable however, that said, the incontravertible fact remains - the adoption of religious beliefs in the supernatural or myths marks the point of
departure from rationality. There is no room for confusion on this issue indeed it is a matter of integrity.
Don't be so sure. Conjecture about parallel universes, the 'Multiverse', what came before the 'Big Bang', what might exist outside the observable Universe etc. are, by definition, conjecture about the supernatural, yet they address questions that many highly rational people have been asking for millennia. Some well-known ideas, even if they're merely best guesses, about the supernatural have also been developed from reason and observation by Plato, Aristotle and Aquinas. There is something about the human condition that drives everyone with an ounce of intellectual curiosity to explore the realms of the supernatural and the unknown.
 
Don't be so sure. Conjecture about parallel universes, the 'Multiverse', what came before the 'Big Bang', what might exist outside the observable Universe etc. are, by definition, conjecture about the supernatural, yet they address questions that many highly rational people have been asking for millennia. Some well-known ideas, even if they're merely best guesses, about the supernatural have also been developed from reason and observation by Plato, Aristotle and Aquinas. There is something about the human condition that drives everyone with an ounce of intellectual curiosity to explore the realms of the supernatural and the unknown.
Exploration and belief are two completely different things. You will of course have noted nothing I have posted over the past 2 days refers to exploration.
However, I do not think we disagree about what you have written about exploration - it just has nothing to do with the adoption of beliefs.

Just to give some context - I didn't state what I said lightly - about the adoption of supernatural/mythical religious beliefs as being the point of departure from rationality. The religious beliefs I was brought up on permeate deeply and it took decades of seeking, reflection and experience until I was able to see it clearly. Perhaps that was just me - a slow learner.

Intellectual curiousity is merely that. In my experience it is not intellectual curiousity that drives me to wonder at existence, the universe rather some kind of unexplained universal impulse that I can't quite put my finger on. A mystery.
Mystery is inherent I think. Organized religion specialized in providing concrete things and ideas to hold on to and in our consumer oriented world that was sure to be a big success.
At the place I have reached I experience that state of encountering mystery - of not knowing or not having found as a most powerful spiritual experience.
I accept that you can't build a society with these subjective experiences and viewpoints while Judaeo-Christian structures have had a huge influence on the development of human society.
 
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I see someone here ask "who am I to wish hell upon someone" that's a good question. i'll just say this.. In a way 'i'm the judge jury and executioner'.. I won't go into that its old news..

Just get over it and prepare to die.. But please if you are indeed human and not a 'parasitic demon in disguise'.. Then take your own life rather than the microchip..

Think of me as everyones Dr I prescribe a 'large dose of reality'.. And a fuking big Nuke..!

Die well, but remember Jesus loves ya..!

World War 3 news, predictions, date, coming, events | Express.co.uk
 
Exploration and belief are two completely different things. You will of course have noted nothing I have posted over the past 2 days refers to exploration.
However, I do not think we disagree about what you have written about exploration - it just has nothing to do with the adoption of beliefs.

Just to give some context - I didn't state what I said lightly - about the adoption of supernatural/mythical religious beliefs as being the point of departure from rationality. The religious beliefs I was brought up on permeate deeply and it took decades of seeking, reflection and experience until I was able to see it clearly. Perhaps that was just me - a slow learner.

Intellectual curiousity is merely that. In my experience it is not intellectual curiousity that drives me to wonder at existence, the universe rather some kind of unexplained universal impulse that I can't quite put my finger on. A mystery.
Mystery is inherent I think. Organized religion specialized in providing concrete things and ideas to hold on to and in our consumer oriented world that was sure to be a big success.
At the place I have reached I experience that state of encountering mystery - of not knowing or not having found as a most powerful spiritual experience.
I accept that you can't build a society with these subjective experiences and viewpoints while Judaeo-Christian structures have had a huge influence on the development of human society.
Excellent post and IMHO is yet another pointer to the fact that religion is man made.
We supposedly live in enlightened times and science has brought us to a level of understanding the people who contributed to the Bible could not dream of. However there are still some major unanswered questions which we will probably never know, like is there life after death?, how did the universe start? etc.
Religion doesn't like that so they tell us exactly how it all started and how it will all end and if you don't do as we say in the middle bit you will not have a pleasant afterlife. There is no grey area and God forbid (see what I did there) if you deviate from the written word.
Science doesn't mind if you deviate, in fact they positively encourage it. Come up with whatever theory you like and we will try to prove or disprove it. If we can't find the answer, it's not the end of the world (well it will be eventually) Keep thinking and keep asking the questions.
Faith is knowing what the answer is without contemplating the question
Science is not knowing all the answers to an ever changing question.
 

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