The Bible

You don't understand how things work... if there are no reasons nothing exists except randomness from beyond. If there are reasons "choice" cannot be free of them. As a puppet on a string you cannot move without them.
If free will existed, we'd make decisions based on reasoning. I don't think that decision-making being unconscious says anything about free will and I think people's perceptions of what precisely free will is may be slightly different to your definition.
 
You don't understand how things work...
Generally, I understand very well how things work. What I don't understand is how you make the assertion that, given the ability to reason, all choices made are preordained. That would be true if the reasons were compelling, but if there are reasons both for and against a certain act, or there are no strong reasons to favour one option over another, then there is a choice to be made, and the ability to make that choice, though it may be weighted by other reasons, is still a choice which can be freely made. It's like dining table d'hôte and suddenly succumbing to scran envy when you see someone with an à la carte dish.
 
Generally, I understand very well how things work. What I don't understand is how you make the assertion that, given the ability to reason, all choices made are preordained. That would be true if the reasons were compelling, but if there are reasons both for and against a certain act, or there are no strong reasons to favour one option over another, then there is a choice to be made, and the ability to make that choice, though it may be weighted by other reasons, is still a choice which can be freely made. It's like dining table d'hôte and suddenly succumbing to scran envy when you see someone with an à la carte dish.
this debate isn't about religion or no religion - it's about Higgsbosunism saying all other religions are bs.

Higgsbosunism is higgsy's religion and he doesn' have to be rational about it for us nor anyone else.

So Higgsy, if I convert, will it or will it not help my premium bonds to come up?
 
If free will existed, we'd make decisions based on reasoning. I don't think that decision-making being unconscious says anything about free will and I think people's perceptions of what precisely free will is may be slightly different to your definition.
Reasons are the strings that control you...you can't be free of them. They are pulled by the subconscious before you become aware of it. It's impossible to reverse the process.
 
Generally, I understand very well how things work. What I don't understand is how you make the assertion that, given the ability to reason, all choices made are preordained. That would be true if the reasons were compelling, but if there are reasons both for and against a certain act, or there are no strong reasons to favour one option over another, then there is a choice to be made, and the ability to make that choice, though it may be weighted by other reasons, is still a choice which can be freely made. It's like dining table d'hôte and suddenly succumbing to scran envy when you see someone with an à la carte dish.
Nothing is "preordained". Everything is part of a chain reaction that contains randomness. The process is outside of your control. Choice is an illusion... sorry if you can't grasp the facts.
 
this debate isn't about religion or no religion - it's about Higgsbosunism saying all other religions are bs.

Higgsbosunism is higgsy's religion and he doesn' have to be rational about it for us nor anyone else.

So Higgsy, if I convert, will it or will it not help my premium bonds to come up?
Idiot.
 
Mornin' DC,

An interesting couple of sentences. Seemingly innocuous but in fact, can be seen as somewhat arrogant.

They assume the originator or the MLK 'leader', is somehow removed from the masses, and obviously superior to them if they can see what the masses do not. It assumes the masses are unaware of or unable to discern for themselves such 'truths'.

Also, it's merely the start of another religion, a religion of 'people thinking right', which of course is the basis for all the other religions.

It shows the, to my mind, childish notion, that if we all think the same, all will be well.

Judaism was one attempt that spawned another that was Christianity, that spawned another that was Islam. And each of those attempts has involved violent coercion at one time or another.

I think that any 'living right' has to be an individual thing that may or may not be an example for others to follow.

Bigpod is my shining example, living what he believes yet not asking for anybody else to think as he does or do as he does.


****Not suggesting you're arrogant, just the wording that came to me.

It is arrogant to suggest I could speak for the masses, but at the same time I do think a lot of people, perhaps even the majority, are missing something in their lives, especially young men. This may explain the explosion in mental health problems and the high rate of suicide.

We've got a plethora of science programmes lately, which is all well and good. People like Brian Cox grin at the camera and tell us how we're all "star dust" and how the universe works so that everything in our existence is perfectly explained, except that is, for meaning.

I think it's the lack of meaning in people's lives which is driving all the problems, modern science sums up life thus: You're made of atoms, there's no higher purpose and you're going to die, then that will be the end of you.

With that sort of message it any surprise that people are depressed? Kids are not taught at school about how to find meaning in their life, except to try and get loads of money so that they can buy happiness. Nowadays people can be whatever they want, gender fluidity, men as women and women as men or sometimes a bit of both. There is no structure, purpose or meaning to follow and a lot of people, in my opinion, struggle to make any sense of it.

This, imho, is what the myths and religious texts were attempting to explain. The Iliad, Bible, Koran, Epic of Gilgamesh and the Bhagavad Gita were meant as texts for guidance in life. They all have common themes that are important, such as a hero facing adversity and the importance of integrity, honesty, courage and knowledge. Perhaps the most important thing is coming to grips with your own mortality, which is no easy thing. Many of them also emphasise the significance of family and human relationships, at the end of the day humans are social animals and it's those relationships which are the real meaning of life.

This is all, of course, just my opinion, but I'm inclined to believe that it's not an obvious conclusion for many people to draw.
 
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It is arrogant to suggest I could speak for the masses, but at the same time I do think a lot of people, perhaps even the majority, are missing something in their lives, especially young men. This may explain the explosion in mental health problems and the high rate of suicide.

We've got a plethora of science programmes lately, which is all well and good. People like Brian Cox grin at the camera and tell us how we're all "star dust" and how the universe works so that everything in our existence is perfectly explained, except that is, for meaning.

I think it's the lack of meaning in people's lives which is driving all the problems, modern science sums up life thus: You're made of atoms, there's no higher purpose and you're going to die, then that will be the end of you.

With that sort of message it any surprise that people are depressed? Kids are not taught at school about how to find meaning in their life, except to try and get loads of money so that they can buy happiness. Nowadays people can be whatever they want, gender fluidity, men as women and women as men or sometimes a bit of both. There is no structure, purpose or meaning to follow and a lot of people, in my opinion, struggle to make any sense of it.

This, imho, is what the myths and religious texts were attempting to explain. The Iliad, Bible, Koran, Epic of Gilgamesh and the Bhagavad Gita were meant as texts for guidance in life. They all have common themes that are important, such as a hero facing adversity and the importance of integrity, honesty, courage and knowledge. Perhaps the most important thing is coming to grips with your own mortality, which is no easy thing. Many of them also emphasise the significance of family and human relationships, at the end of the day humans are social animals and it's those relationships which are the real meaning of life.

This is all, of course, just my opinion, but I'm inclined to believe that it's not an obvious conclusion for many people to draw.
I think you're mostly right. Sadly over the years I've come to a pretty low level conclusion about 'most people'. They are neither very bright nor very energetic [the polite way of putting it], they actively want someone to tell them what to think and do because the effort of doing it themselves, and the unpalatable answers they come up with are not satisfactory. Being the follower of a fascist leader is the evolutionary advantageous position for most folks as it requires less effort, both mental and physical, than being an active part of a liberal democracy. Historically religious fascism is more successful as it has the continuity that a single leader lacks. Watching Michael Palin in North Korea was quite instructive. I never did really believe that most of the population weren't moderately happy with the Kim family religion otherwise they would have moved him out.
The system of course has it's mutations and currently in the UK I'd say we have experienced a period of change exploring the dangerous idea that there are no right answers, but I don't expect it to last forever. The interesting question is will we manage to produce a new 'bible for agnostic life' or will one of the current books get 'reinterpreted' to suit our needs. It wouldn't in my opinion take much effort to make Buddhism a religion that most atheists and agnostics could follow convincing themselves it wasn't really a religion at all.
 
Reasons are the strings that control you...you can't be free of them. They are pulled by the subconscious before you become aware of it. It's impossible to reverse the process.
I don't know lots of stuff and can't research. Questions spring to mind about the links between subconscious and awareness/consciousness and whether there's any sort of feedback loop; the actual role of consciousness and whether the subconscious acts first in all circumstances.

Mostly, your assertions on this seem persuasive but . . . but . . . for some reason, I'm not entirely persuaded. Mayhap there's some bias I'm unaware of.

I can't get away from the nagging thought that it doesn't matter whether decisions are made consciously or subconsciously, as the method of decision-making would be the same either way.

There are surely instances where options are weighted evenly and experimentation kicks in - 'I don't know, I'll go one way and see what happens', sort of thing?

In my head at least, the issue is far from settled.
 
Many of them also emphasise the significance of family and human relationships, at the end of the day humans are social animals and it's those relationships which are the real meaning of life.
I like the gist of your whole post but particularly this bit.

From my perspective, life has no meaning but human relationships are what matter. There is nothing more important to me than family and I seem to have passed this on to my offspring.

Oddly, we seem to need to constantly remind ourselves of this and such relationships need work.

All in all, you make a good point.
 
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
It usually is... and there are no good reasons to believe in anything without it. The whole problem of religions throughout history. Greek, Roman and Norse mythology for examples. Do you still feel that Thor is a real god? No evidence apparently...doh!
 
I don't know lots of stuff and can't research. Questions spring to mind about the links between subconscious and awareness/consciousness and whether there's any sort of feedback loop; the actual role of consciousness and whether the subconscious acts first in all circumstances.

Mostly, your assertions on this seem persuasive but . . . but . . . for some reason, I'm not entirely persuaded. Mayhap there's some bias I'm unaware of.

I can't get away from the nagging thought that it doesn't matter whether decisions are made consciously or subconsciously, as the method of decision-making would be the same either way.

There are surely instances where options are weighted evenly and experimentation kicks in - 'I don't know, I'll go one way and see what happens', sort of thing?

In my head at least, the issue is far from settled.
From the material I have found it looks like the subconscious is not a 'decision' maker, more of a relay from your brain...as a computer cpu would calculate stuff and it then transmitted though the gpu to the screen As far as we can tell, reversing the process is not possible.
 
It usually is... and there are no good reasons to believe in anything without it. The whole problem of religions throughout history. Greek, Roman and Norse mythology for examples. Do you still feel that Thor is a real god? No evidence apparently...doh!
Oh, dear.

Allow me to draw your attention to:

1. Arguments from ignorance and, specifically,

2. Descartes, who said that the existence of a benevolent God is logically necessary for the evidence of the senses to be meaningful.
 
Oh, dear.

Allow me to draw your attention to:

1. Arguments from ignorance and, specifically,

2. Descartes, who said that the existence of a benevolent God is logically necessary for the evidence of the senses to be meaningful.
Decartes was wrong... I am the evidence.
 

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