The Bible

Again you need to read a bit more. That is maybe true today but in the First Century for the Jews the idea of the Messiah was a physical one. They expected a king in the line of David, perhaps a priest king as well, to liberate them from the Romans.
I know that and that is what prompted Jesus but he claimed to be god, not a common person. Then if one believed him he must have believed a new religion, not just a person.

The idea of Son of God is a later concept and arguably inserted by editors of the texts.

Esoterically/spiritually we are all Sons of God or nobody is, and if JC actually said the Son of God quote then he may well have meant that. History, editing, interpretation have all played their part in distorting what he was putting forward.
If Jesus didn't say he was god all Christianity collapses. It's all based on his claim and on the claim he resurrected.
 
You're kidding me. Teachers are selfish and promote their own subject even they know it gives no hope for work. Tell me a job where ancient Greek is useful. None. The only honest teachers I heard are the ones who teach useful subjects and they agree others are pointless but only because they're not involved and their course wouldn't lose students.

Lies, cons, dishonesty exist because they work. It 's teachers' fault to suggest useless courses for their own interest. If they admitted their subject is useless for work theur course would lose students and they may lose their job. They don't care if students will be unemployed. They put themselves ahead of others with deception and they're Chtistians.
Thanks for the complete character rundown then, I never knew I was all of that. Well, well, well.

All teachers are Christians then? All of us? Good outmoded deity concept! I never knew I was one.


When? I never heard of one.
Just because you haven't heard of them doesn't mean they don't exist.


Official numbers from the government, the media and by having lived there. I can take you to any bar in Milan and none of them will give you a receipt that is the way taxes are paid. Without a receipt they're evading at least 30% of the money you gave them. Tax evasion is estimated at 200 billion euros, the average incomes are public so the hilarious ranking of taxpayers has employers who earn less than the people who work for them, Mercedes car dealers who earn 6000 euros a year, BMW cars bought by categories who earn 2000 euros.


I can give you any proof you want. Christians evade taxes if it's not illegal. It's millions of people, it's a smoking gun. Then you have lawyers who defend clearly guilty people or the interests of unfair causes. For example, in Italy you can't open pharmacy drug stores so that the few ones make a lot of money. Young graduates and less young ones are then left unemployed and prices to customers are 4 times higher than with a free market. So you have 15,000 dishonest pharmacy owners, plus their lawyers who try eveything to not allow the young graduates to open their store, plus politicians who defend this unfair cause in exchange of money. They're all Christians. The list of proofs is endless, Christians are not good nor honest so they're hypocrites.


If they're Christians only with words they're hypocrites.


Then hypocrites, they know Jesus wants honesty and solidarity.
I think you have missed my point entirely, or it has gone over your head*.

The people I name as nominal christians aren't really christians because they don't follow the religion.
They say they are for a label, but they aren't. Is that hypocrisy? Maybe but not deliberately so. But to use it to prove that all christians, the active ones are hypocites is unconvincing. It's like saying all sheep are white (or black) because they are sheep.

Anyway if they are hypocrites then so what? So are atheists, and agnostics, and Muslims and................the list goes on. We all are at some level.

*A charge often laid at my door, especially on the rugby field.
Try and I bet my right arm I'm right.
Like I said, with general statistics.

Who is the founder of Christianity then? Jesus Christ obviously. He said he was god, if one believed him it must be a different religion than the previous one. If Jews weren't the only chosen people but god opened the religion to everyone it was a new religion, he told disciples to spread his words and follow him. In other words a religion.
Now here you are wrong, and guilty of putting a too simplistic view on things. I will try to give you a short history based lesson but I warn you, you probably won't be able to get a job with it afterwards.

Firstly Christ was the figure that other people founded a religion on. He himself did not claim to do so and continued to work from a Jewish base. To the Jews of the day to equate oneself with God was blasphemy and he wasn't likely to get people to listen to him let alone preach his message if they faced a stoning.
Jesus did not call himself God, he did say that 'I and the Father are one' but that could be interpretated in many ways. Let me give a simple example, to one who meditates and who feels at peace and a unity with, shall we say nature, then that means that he feels at one with everything in that moment. To someone who meditates every day that feeling would be prolonged or constant.
We do not know if Jesus meant that, or in fact exactly what he was trying to say.

What we have is the biblical accounts of what he is pupported to have said, and as it has been mentioned the Bible is a hugely edited book with very partisan views on Christ and some later additions as well. So what we have is a book that says what certain people living quite some time after Christ want us to think he said, because it supports what they think religion should be.
Don't forget other sources (and versions of Christianity) said other things about Christ. In most early versions of Christianity Christ was not claimed to be divine at all, far from it, he was more of a prophet in the line of Buddha.

Jesus did not start Christianity, others did. To say that if you believe he is the Son of God and therefore you are a Christian is a modern thing.

In those days people would consider his words, accept maybe part of his teachings, maybe all. But they would then fit that around their lives, for some it meant staying jewish, for others it meant a change of direction. It is just not as black and white as you see things.

Ed for spelling.
 
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Thanks for the complete character rundown then, I never knew I was all of that. Well, well, well.

All teachers are Christians then? All of us? Good outmoded deity concept! I never knew I was one.
As I stated before I base my opinions on facts. The many teachers I heard plus their actions reported on the media give me this opinion. You ever heard a teacher admitting his subject is useless? For example you may know that Italy has a big national debt because of large expenses in the 80s. Back then, millions of teachers were given the chance by politicians to go to pension after 14 years of work. Obviously they knew it wasn't right and that their very early pension would be paid by the new generations and not by their own taxes. Guess what they did, in millions. They all retired at 45 after 14 years of work. So why should I have a different opinion? Facts matter and words are cheap. Many of them are Christians.

Just because you haven't heard of them doesn't mean they don't exist.
True but by counting the millions of them from the media I came to the conclusion that most if not all Christians put their self interests before others.

Maybe but not deliberately so. But to use it to prove that all christians, the active ones are hypocites is unconvincing. It's like saying all sheep are white (or black) because they are sheep.
I base my opinion on facts. When I'll notice a change in behaviour I will change opinion.

Anyway if they are hypocrites then so what? So are atheists, and agnostics, and Muslims and................the list goes on. We all are at some level.
At a religious level Christians are hypocrites because Jesus' message is about honesty and good. As far as I know Muslims don't have that morality written in the Quran. Atheists are not hypocrites about religion, they don't claim to follow a religion of good actions, they can be hypocrites about other words.

Like I said, with general statistics.
Everytime there is a big interest on the plate I always notice selfishness

Firstly Christ was the figure that other people founded a religion on. He himself did not claim to do so and continued to work from a Jewish base.
This is where we differ. He told people to spread his teaching, to found a church (he didn't himself because there was no point while he was there) and that he was god. It's a religion

To the Jews of the day to equate oneself with God was blasphemy and he wasn't likely to get people to listen to him let alone preach his message if they faced a stoning.
He was given a death sentence for it
Jesus did not call himself God, he did say that 'I and the Father are one' but that could be interpretated in many ways.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end….The victorious shall inherit these things, and I will be God to him and he will be son to me.The man who has seen me has seen the Father

Jesus did not start Christianity, others did. To say that if you believe he is the Son of God and therefore you are a Christian is a modern thing.
He gave instructions before going away. It's a logical thing, if you believe in Jesus what religion are you? You can't be an old style Jewish because you're not even a Jew and even being originally Jewish you're not following the old testament anymore. You follow (rightly or wrongly) a new man and his new words
In those days people would consider his words, accept maybe part of his teachings, maybe all. But they would then fit that around their lives, for some it meant staying jewish, for others it meant a change of direction. It is just not as black and white as you see things.
Definitions can be different but if one believes Jesus has resurrected, he's next to the Father and will come back to end the world he can't be Jewish. He's Christian
 
He wasn't. Jewish followers can't believe Jesus is god, that he resurrected and that every person in the world is god's son.
I hate to break this to you but people can believe whatever they want, regardless of who they follow. Why, there's even people who believe that Jesus wasn't Jewish.

But he was, you know.

Really.

Jewish.
 
Myths, legends and fairy tales, fear, intimidation, control, power, and corruption. organised Religion in a nutshell. remove the insidious evil of religion, politics and banking, and no more war, death and dictators, the world will be at peace.
 
As I stated before I base my opinions on facts. The many teachers I heard plus their actions reported on the media give me this opinion. You ever heard a teacher admitting his subject is useless? For example you may know that Italy has a big national debt because of large expenses in the 80s. Back then, millions of teachers were given the chance by politicians to go to pension after 14 years of work. Obviously they knew it wasn't right and that their very early pension would be paid by the new generations and not by their own taxes. Guess what they did, in millions. They all retired at 45 after 14 years of work. So why should I have a different opinion? Facts matter and words are cheap. Many of them are Christians.


True but by counting the millions of them from the media I came to the conclusion that most if not all Christians put their self interests before others.


I base my opinion on facts. When I'll notice a change in behaviour I will change opinion.


At a religious level Christians are hypocrites because Jesus' message is about honesty and good. As far as I know Muslims don't have that morality written in the Quran. Atheists are not hypocrites about religion, they don't claim to follow a religion of good actions, they can be hypocrites about other words.


Everytime there is a big interest on the plate I always notice selfishness


This is where we differ. He told people to spread his teaching, to found a church (he didn't himself because there was no point while he was there) and that he was god. It's a religion


He was given a death sentence for it

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end….The victorious shall inherit these things, and I will be God to him and he will be son to me.The man who has seen me has seen the Father


He gave instructions before going away. It's a logical thing, if you believe in Jesus what religion are you? You can't be an old style Jewish because you're not even a Jew and even being originally Jewish you're not following the old testament anymore. You follow (rightly or wrongly) a new man and his new words

Definitions can be different but if one believes Jesus has resurrected, he's next to the Father and will come back to end the world he can't be Jewish. He's Christian
Jewish.

Considering you're a priest, you don't know much about your religion, do you? Maybe your teachers in the seminary weren't very good.

tell me again, what are people who do stuff that is not illegal? And don't forget to base your opinion on facts.

Facts like 'Jesus was Jewish'.
 
Jewish.

Considering you're a priest, you don't know much about your religion, do you? Maybe your teachers in the seminary weren't very good.

tell me again, what are people who do stuff that is not illegal? And don't forget to base your opinion on facts.

Facts like 'Jesus was Jewish'.
Scull caps, that might be a clue, even the pope wears one, all the rage for the last 5700+ years, Oh, by the way, yer mans been dead a long time, get over it, and move on.
 
As I stated before I base my opinions on facts. The many teachers I heard plus their actions reported on the media give me this opinion. You ever heard a teacher admitting his subject is useless? For example you may know that Italy has a big national debt because of large expenses in the 80s. Back then, millions of teachers were given the chance by politicians to go to pension after 14 years of work. Obviously they knew it wasn't right and that their very early pension would be paid by the new generations and not by their own taxes. Guess what they did, in millions. They all retired at 45 after 14 years of work. So why should I have a different opinion? Facts matter and words are cheap. Many of them are Christians.


True but by counting the millions of them from the media I came to the conclusion that most if not all Christians put their self interests before others.


I base my opinion on facts. When I'll notice a change in behaviour I will change opinion.


At a religious level Christians are hypocrites because Jesus' message is about honesty and good. As far as I know Muslims don't have that morality written in the Quran. Atheists are not hypocrites about religion, they don't claim to follow a religion of good actions, they can be hypocrites about other words.


Everytime there is a big interest on the plate I always notice selfishness
We are just dancing round here, I think you need to define between active and nominal you don't, OK leave it there. I will agree that there is hypocrisy in it all, but wider than you define.

I won't agree about teachers because it's not my experience, and I am in that world after all. Some yes, but the majority? As I say, not in my experience, it may be in yours.


This is where we differ. He told people to spread his teaching, to found a church (he didn't himself because there was no point while he was there) and that he was god. It's a religion
Now here you are making the same mistake as those Christians who are literal Bible readers. The Bible we have is only one version of what Jesus may have said, and a heavily edited and extremely partial version designed to back up a vision of what was a minority group of Christians. I agree with Higgsy here that it is the most manipulated book ever.
We don't know what Jesus actually said, what the Bible contains is an incomplete selected and edited mish-mash of his teachings chosen to back up a sectarian POV.
To quote the Bible as authority for what he said is to quote a highly unreliable source if you take it literally without examination and consideration. If you base your arguments on a literal reading then you are on dodgy ground.

For example in the mediteranean world of the First Century the Mystery School tradition was well established. In that there were general teachings for most and for those who wanted to go further there were deeper teachings on a more, shall we say, spiritual level. The clue that JC went this path is twofold, one that it has been admitted in the early debates, but I don't have the reference here. Secondly the raising of Lazarus has all the hall marks of an initiation ceremony. Some other groupings, and the Masons are one have used similar ceremonies where an aspirant is left in a chamber in the dark to meditate and reflect on his spiritual advancement and past life. Then he will be restored to the light reborn anew. Lazarus may well have been undergoing such a process and not really dead at all.
It makes more sense than raising a dead corpse and is far easier to believe. But if everybody uses the literal Roman edited version and takes it literally then you have a religion.
Christian can be many things, but Jesus wasn't a Christian like the Church claims, so don't make the same mistake.
Also neither Paul nor Peter appear to have been privy to all of this, Paul certainly wasn't, and they are the base of the Church as it is.


He was given a death sentence for it
Yes, but by whom? The Jewish punishment was stoning, so not a religious punishment. Roman punishment was Crucifixion, so he was punished for opposition to the Romans and therefore for a political reason.
This would be consistent with Roman policy which generally allowed the locals their Gods provided it didn't interfere with the Administration. In Britain and other parts of the Empire like Hispania the Romans moved against the Druids not for their religious/spiritual beliefs but because they stirred up opposition to the administration.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end….The victorious shall inherit these things, and I will be God to him and he will be son to me.The man who has seen me has seen the Father
That can easily be interpreted in more than one way, and it doesn't mean that the man is God.
Not all versions of the new ways agreed with idea of Jesus as God. In the First Century the new ways settled into different streams and other versions of Christianity contradict the Roman version. Arianism for example, which at the beginning dominated in Europe, never claimed Christ as divine. The above quote has been given a Roman slant to back up their ideas. You need to be more objective.



He gave instructions before going away. It's a logical thing, if you believe in Jesus what religion are you? You can't be an old style Jewish because you're not even a Jew and even being originally Jewish you're not following the old testament anymore. You follow (rightly or wrongly) a new man and his new words
Modern times yes, First Century not so clear. Yes people did change their ways, but to what? There was no Christianity as defined in the Bible, which came a lot later, so be careful with your definitions. Maybe a follower of Christ but we really don't know what he did say, or do.
Definitions can be different but if one believes Jesus has resurrected, he's next to the Father and will come back to end the world he can't be Jewish. He's Christian
Sure, but that is a relatively modern concept, and also a very Roman Catholic one from which the modern variants of the Church have sprung. Why? Because they use the Bible constructed by that church, as opposed to looking further back.
 

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