The Benefits (or Otherwise) of a United States of Europe

(Snip)

It's a bit like being transported back to April 2012 with full knowledge of the future. Do you book a passage on the Titanic knowing its got excellent food, luxurious cabins and a 21 knot top speed, but also knowing its going to hit the iceberg?

(Snip)
Probably not, seeing as it would have been getting on a bit . . . if it hadn't already sunk 100 years previously!
 
I don't recognise the validity of SPOTY frankly.

You know what they say about polls
They shouldn't come over here stealing our jobs??;)
 
Really, so what did the EEC contribute to peace in say Poland and Hungary in 1947-89?
The mere fact that the EEC/EU existed provided ample evidence for all to see that communism/socialism do not work, whereas capitalism does. Nowhere was that more evident than in Germany where the contrast between the two German states was extreme.
All this provided a target for the various peoples of eastern Europe to aim for. But perhaps the best argument is quite simple. Endless funds form the sinews of war, a truism that the Romans found out 2000+ years ago. We could quite simply outspend the other side, they ended up stoney broke in a futile attempt to keep up.
 
Cooperative economic development and a lengthy period of prosperity has played it's part, no matter how much you wish it wasn't so
But not as major apart as EU fans like to boast. And given the abject failure of any cooperative action during the early years of the collapse of Yugoslavia from 1991 onwards, the repeated attempts by the Germans to lift sanctions imposed on Russia for the, amongst other things, the murder of 290+ Dutch citizens, the ongoing Civil War in the Ukraine and Russian promoted instability in the Baltic or the abject failure in dealing with the ongoing migration disaster made worse by a frankly deluded German Chancellor. I'd suggest the EU is not that great at keeping peace. Oddly enough NATO has made a decent fist of things....
 
But not as major apart as EU fans like to boast. And given the abject failure of any cooperative action during the early years of the collapse of Yugoslavia from 1991 onwards, the repeated attempts by the Germans to lift sanctions imposed on Russia for the, amongst other things, the murder of 290+ Dutch citizens, the ongoing Civil War in the Ukraine and Russian promoted instability in the Baltic or the abject failure in dealing with the ongoing migration disaster made worse by a frankly deluded German Chancellor. I'd suggest the EU is not that great at keeping peace. Oddly enough NATO has made a decent fist of things....
The migration disaster by the German chancellor is the EU's fault?

It seems like anything wrong with European stability is automatically the EU's fault.

Whereas the peace and stability enjoyed in many European countries is then automatically thanks to NATO in your view.

At least that's what I am interpreting from you
 
The migration disaster by the German chancellor is the EU's fault?

It seems like anything wrong with European stability is automatically the EU's fault.

Whereas the peace and stability enjoyed in many European countries is then automatically thanks to NATO in your view.

At least that's what I am interpreting from you
European migrant crisis - Wikipedia

EU takes action against eastern states for refusing to take refugees

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Merkel and therefore by default the EU.
 
The migration disaster by the German chancellor is the EU's fault?

It seems like anything wrong with European stability is automatically the EU's fault.

Whereas the peace and stability enjoyed in many European countries is then automatically thanks to NATO in your view.

At least that's what I am interpreting from you
Some might say the German chancellor is the EU.

As an aside over the last few months I haven't heard one of my EU born friends (French, Latvian,Polish and Italian) have a bad word over Brexit. My Irish neighbors however. That is another matter.
 
Some might say the German chancellor is the EU.
As an aside over the last few months I haven't heard one of my EU born friends (French, Latvian,Polish and Italian) have a bad word over Brexit. My Irish neighbors however. That is another matter.
She did (and maybe still does) think of herself as the leader of her free world.
Time magazine had her as "Person of the year 2015" alongside the accolade "Chancellor of the Free World."
Shortly after opening up the borders to every Achmed, Hekmaat and Sayed.
Funnily enough the next year was the year she went to Turkey and got an agreement on immigration and Greece to get (yet another) agreement on the Eurozone.
Just her as the German Chancellor apparently, although on one of them I do recall some Prime Minister from somewhere taking part too.
In a very minor way obviously.
I never voted for her to speak on my behalf on either subject in either country.
That is definitely not a benefit of living in an allegedly united state of anything.
Meanwhile her star has waned, still no proper government in the Fatherland and that of Monsieur Macron is in the ascendant.
What a choice Europe is presented with these days.
Going to be an interesting year methinks.
 
The migration disaster by the German chancellor is the EU's fault?

It seems like anything wrong with European stability is automatically the EU's fault.

Whereas the peace and stability enjoyed in many European countries is then automatically thanks to NATO in your view.

At least that's what I am interpreting from you
DFG. You are clutching at straws aren't you ? The point I was aiming for, that clearly flew over your head at about Milky Way height, is that the EU has been stressed tested on at least 3 occasions with pretty major external impacts and has not succeeded at maintaining unity or stability. If it had been able to maintain unity we wouldn't be discussing this would we ?

And I do wish you'd learn to read. I said "ongoing migration disaster made worse by a frankly deluded German Chancellor."

In case you're struggling here....F**k it. You are struggling here so I will help. The migration disaster affecting Europe AS A WHOLE was made far worse by the utter stupidity of ONE person. Who opened the doors to utterly uncontrolled migration from the whole of the Middle East and possibly Africa after bottling out at the idea of migrants being stuck behind fences on TV and threw open the doors with no controls. That one person was unable to even think of considering the impact on other European countries and resorted to her own selfish petty needs. That one person, for all their pompous hypocrisy on European integration and union took a f**k off massive wet curly shite on the EU.

So much for European Union.
 
DFG. You are clutching at straws aren't you ? The point I was aiming for, that clearly flew over your head at about Milky Way height, is that the EU has been stressed tested on at least 3 occasions with pretty major external impacts and has not succeeded at maintaining unity or stability. If it had been able to maintain unity we wouldn't be discussing this would we ?

And I do wish you'd learn to read. I said "ongoing migration disaster made worse by a frankly deluded German Chancellor."

In case you're struggling here....F**k it. You are struggling here so I will help. The migration disaster affecting Europe AS A WHOLE was made far worse by the utter stupidity of ONE person. Who opened the doors to utterly uncontrolled migration from the whole of the Middle East and possibly Africa after bottling out at the idea of migrants being stuck behind fences on TV and threw open the doors with no controls. That one person was unable to even think of considering the impact on other European countries and resorted to her own selfish petty needs. That one person, for all their pompous hypocrisy on European integration and union took a f**k off massive wet curly shite on the EU.

So much for European Union.
So it was Merkel's fault then. Glad we agree.

You are aware that a significant proportion of blame lies at CMDs door for championing the collapse of Libyan government, are you?
 
So it was Merkel's fault then. Glad we agree.

You are aware that a significant proportion of blame lies at CMDs door for championing the collapse of Libyan government, are you?
Of course I know that. The f**kwit managed to have less wit than Bliar at this point. But Call Me Dave can not be blamed for the mass of migrants from the Middle East. He can take some blame for the f**k up in North Africa.
 
Of course I know that. The f**kwit managed to have less wit than Bliar at this point. But Call Me Dave can not be blamed for the mass of migrants from the Middle East. He can take some blame for the f**k up in North Africa.
Then I think we agree
 

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