The Begining of Political Correctness

#1
Having watched the Ch 4 Herman Goring begs the question. Were the Nurenberg trials the begining of PC.

Churchill wanted them all shot. But the US had its way and had the trial to prove we were better than the Nazis.

I think Churchill was correct again.
 
#2
Another way of looking at the trials was to demonstrate to the German population exactly WHY they had the sh1t kicked out of them (thus avoiding the bitterness and resentment like they harboured after WWI). Another reason might the establishment of precedent- perhaps sending out the signal "You try this shit, this is what happens to you."

It's also easy to forget that the Nuremburg Trials were pivotal in establishing the nature of Nazi war crimes. We all know the story- we've had 60+ years to get our heads around it. You can't say that about the situation at the time.
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#3
I watched that, it was quite good. I think that the realisation that they were to be hung rather than shot must have had a profound effect upon them, particularly those in the military. Hanging was for criminals after all. I think that they, or most of them anyway, expected to get the death sentence and that being told that they would be hung basically demolished any 'honour' they may have had in death.

I'll bet they wanted to choke Albert Speer, the little weasel! Goering wAs an arrogant tw*t wasn't he? Mind you, he must have known that he had bugger all to lose.
 
#4
I can understand where you are botb comming from. However I think this trial showed as weakness on the part of the allies.

It also showed how the USA had no idea of what had gone on in Europe with the attitude of the guarding officers.

The Nazis did not derserve the attention they had.
 
#5
But what were the Allies fighting for if not for democracy, the right to life and justice and respect for your fellow man - everything the Nazis were against. Shooting them without the painful examination of their horrific actions would have denied those principles for which millions of people had died to uphold.


Sometimes our basic instincts need to be subjugated to a higher perogative (trust me, I struggle with this probably most days when I want to annihilate some prat who's p*ssed me off!!)
 
#6
Goering wAs an arrogant tw*t wasn't he? Mind you, he must have known that he had bugger all to lose.
Apparently he threw a very good party; I've also read that Himmler was very good about giving time off for his staff who'd just had a family bereavement.

I'll try and dig out the reference, but it was Stalin who pushed to have all the major Nazi's (including Hitler, if he'd been caught alive) to be put on trial, whereas Churchill wanted to have them all shot (no public trial)
 
#7
But - noble as Nuremburg was - and in my view it should have happened look what it has spawned - Human Rights legislation - yes the spirit in which it was meant is noble but the interpretation of it now as we all know is a fcukin joke. I find it laughable that european human rights legislation which is based on the Nuremburg model is forced upon this country in such a ridiculous manner when it was us that thought of it (and interpreted it pragmatically) in the first place.

Sorry - I can't resist it - by Germans!
 
#10
Random_Task said:
I'll try and dig out the reference, but it was Stalin who pushed to have all the major Nazi's (including Hitler, if he'd been caught alive) to be put on trial, whereas Churchill wanted to have them all shot (no public trial)
I recall reading somewhere that if the Red Army had captured Hitler alive, Stalin intended to put him on exhibition at the Moscow Zoo.

No trial, just a room next to the baboons.

Also, I read that Stalin grew ever more ferociously, absurdly suspicious with age. He supposedly suspected that the Americans or the British covertly gave Hitler asylum or at least were keeping his whereabouts secret.
 
#12
Biscuits_AB said:
I'll bet they wanted to choke Albert Speer, the little weasel!
I wouldn't doubt it.

Speer got away with posturing himself as an "anti-Nazi Nazi." (His own term taken from his somewhat inaccurate autobiography, Inside The Third Reich.)

Justice Jackson, the chief American prosecutor, seemed to go along with this and subjected Speer to a mild and bloodless cross-examination.

I would imagine when Speer got to the bit about his alleged abortive attempt to assassinate Hitler the average blood pressure of the defendants must have risen considerably.
 
#13
crabtastic said:
Another way of looking at the trials was to demonstrate to the German population exactly WHY they had the sh1t kicked out of them (thus avoiding the bitterness and resentment like they harboured after WWI). Another reason might the establishment of precedent- perhaps sending out the signal "You try this s***, this is what happens to you."

It's also easy to forget that the Nuremburg Trials were pivotal in establishing the nature of Nazi war crimes. We all know the story- we've had 60+ years to get our heads around it. You can't say that about the situation at the time.
If only we could say the same for the Far East Tribunal
 
#14
Not_Whistlin_Dixie
Also, I read that Stalin grew ever more ferociously, absurdly suspicious with age. He supposedly suspected that the Americans or the British covertly gave Hitler asylum or at least were keeping his whereabouts secret.
Same with Martin Bormann, who incidentally now ekes out a living as a sub-post office master, and is the 1986/87 Yeovil and district indoor bowls champion.

BBC Link
 
#15
Random_Task said:
Not_Whistlin_Dixie
Also, I read that Stalin grew ever more ferociously, absurdly suspicious with age. He supposedly suspected that the Americans or the British covertly gave Hitler asylum or at least were keeping his whereabouts secret.
Same with Martin Bormann, who incidentally now ekes out a living as a sub-post office master, and is the 1986/87 Yeovil and district indoor bowls champion.

BBC Link
Now I know who's behind the new postal regulations
 
#16
The Avalon Project run by Yale University is a fascinating collection of documents which includes the trial proceedings and witness statements taken from the Nuremberg Tribunals:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/imt.htm#proc

It is interesting to note that part of the remit of the tribunal was that it should not overly concern itself nor be bound strictly by the rules of evidence which is perhaps just as well.

The Soviets as well as the other three powers presided in judgement on one of the indictments against Goering et al which was: 'Waging Aggressive War' when known only too well by the tribunal, five years before, under the Molotov/Ribbentrop pact, both the Germans and the Soviets attacked Poland and carved it up into their own spheres of influence - something the tribunal conveniently forgot!

Another fact the tribunal conveniently forgot was the charge levelled at Kietel in that he was responsible for carrying out the so-called 'Fuhrer Order' that all enemy special forces were to be shot out of hand.

The order itself was issued following the raid by the British and Canadians at Dieppe when captured officers were found to be in possession of 'The Handbook of Irregular Warfare' printed by the War Office. In that Pamphlet, it stated clearly that Prisoners were not to be taken but were to be dealt with summarily!

Under International Law as it stood at that time, a state against whom such an order operated was entitled in law, to issue reciprocal orders. Thus, in international law, the order by Hitler was perfectly legal!

The tribunal did not, of course allow the Defence to adduce this in evidence and Kietel was indicted upon it!

It is worth browsing through the Avalon project since there are some remarkable documents in it.

Regards and best wishes
Iolis
 
#18
War Crimes in WW II! Yes, most war crimes trials are conducted by the victors of that war. Had the Axis won the war, I'm sure that their 'war crimes' trials would be short and sweet.

The is no doubt in my mind, that that the Allies in WW II, commited what could be called war crimes by the Axis. Some perhaps rightfully so.
 
#19
Iolis said:
The Avalon Project run by Yale University is a fascinating collection of documents which includes the trial proceedings and witness statements taken from the Nuremberg Tribunals:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/imt.htm#proc

It is interesting to note that part of the remit of the tribunal was that it should not overly concern itself nor be bound strictly by the rules of evidence which is perhaps just as well.

The Soviets as well as the other three powers presided in judgement on one of the indictments against Goering et al which was: 'Waging Aggressive War' when known only too well by the tribunal, five years before, under the Molotov/Ribbentrop pact, both the Germans and the Soviets attacked Poland and carved it up into their own spheres of influence - something the tribunal conveniently forgot!

Another fact the tribunal conveniently forgot was the charge levelled at Kietel in that he was responsible for carrying out the so-called 'Fuhrer Order' that all enemy special forces were to be shot out of hand.

The order itself was issued following the raid by the British and Canadians at Dieppe when captured officers were found to be in possession of 'The Handbook of Irregular Warfare' printed by the War Office. In that Pamphlet, it stated clearly that Prisoners were not to be taken but were to be dealt with summarily!

Under International Law as it stood at that time, a state against whom such an order operated was entitled in law, to issue reciprocal orders. Thus, in international law, the order by Hitler was perfectly legal!

The tribunal did not, of course allow the Defence to adduce this in evidence and Kietel was indicted upon it!

It is worth browsing through the Avalon project since there are some remarkable documents in it.

Regards and best wishes
Iolis
So some of the charges were imperfectly framed -and it was the victors who ran the whole thing - but sh1t bust bottom line those fcukers got what they deserved - unlike what happens this brave new world
 

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