The Baltics: should Britain be rushing to their defence?

In the Ukrainian thread there is a link to one of the, more intelligent, Twitter feeds that has links to Russian military dispersion. In short it suggests that the forces facing the Baltics are, by some margin, the weakest in the Southern (Western?) military district, both in teeth an support arms, and that indicates that there is no real threat to the Baltics.

Of course circumstances can change.
A redirection of resources towards a more immediate priority?
 

Himmler74

On ROPS
On ROPs
If the Russians crossed the border into Lithuania, then I would suggest that all bets were off. Whether or not the Baltic States should have joined NATO is moot, but they definitely do not want to be part of Russia again.
Agreed, that’s why they are building up on the Ukrainian Border, just to see the response, two fronts to fight, break the unity in NATO.
Putin controls and spins the media, look at all these brave soldiers coming home killed by NATO jets, while the west media gets invited in and is shown “evidence“.

Then the West is yet again blamed for putins behaviour. Maskirovka 101.
 
Unlikely. If they were life expired then they'd be destroyed. And they'd be rather tricky to shift overseas.

I suspect as the M72 is no longer in service with the US Armed Forced then storing them is slightly pointless.

In theory they could be quite useful to the Lithuanians as they should handle lightly armoured vehicles adequately.

Given the last known quoted price for the M72A2 was $750 each, that is a lot of LAWs

surprised to google that they are still being manufactured
 
In the Ukrainian thread there is a link to one of the, more intelligent, Twitter feeds that has links to Russian military dispersion. In short it suggests that the forces facing the Baltics are, by some margin, the weakest in the Southern (Western?) military district, both in teeth an support arms, and that indicates that there is no real threat to the Baltics.

Of course circumstances can change.

And now would not be the moment to drop our guard.
 

DaManBugs

LE
Book Reviewer
And now would not be the moment to drop our guard.
And you can't go "dropping your guard" now, can you? But "dropping your guard" against what? Despite intensive internet research, I've yet to find any indication whatsoever that Russia intends (or has ever intended) to invade the Baltic States after they were granted their independence in 1991.

And, let's face it, if such an invasion was actually on the cards, there's nothing at all to stop the Ivans from doing exactly that! If they really were serious, they'd be on the Baltic coast in about six hours and waving friendlily at the NATO wallahs offshore.

The same is true of Ukraine. The Ivans, if they pushed it a bit, would roll over the place in something like 24 hours. And what would the US and NATO do? Nothing! They wouldn't be able to prevent it! Instead, we'd be hearing screams from everywhere (actually only from the US) to "embargo the shite out of the place". Well, sure, why not? It's worked so very well to date, hasn't it?

And so we come to the core of the "problem". The US wants to be the absolute world power ("US exceptionalism", and all that). The only other countries that could "disagree" with that - and present a real obstacle - are China, Russia and, possibly, India at a later date. So the Septics went very early after 1991 into demonising Russia as the "new terror" and in addition presenting themselves as the "saviours of world democracy". We all know how that worked out, don't we?

Russia has always emphasised that it's interested in world trade first and foremost. No ambitions to "rule the world" have ever been articulated, although, understandably, I suppose, the Septics suspect that their own world-power aspirations are being usurped by others and want to do everything to prevent that.

The conclusion is that the present rift in international relations is not because the Russians are reluctant to "give up" their world power but because the US wants to eliminate them as a competitor in the power stakes. That's why the Septics have mindlessly driven their programme to "surround" Russia - which is why they wanted the Baltic States in NATO in the first place and why they want Ukraine to do the same.

The whole, tragic mess is not something the Russians started, nor is it something they want to continue. They (the Russians) see no reason why the world can't trade on an equal basis, but the Septics have an entirely different view of things.

MsG
 

Himmler74

On ROPS
On ROPs
And you can't go "dropping your guard" now, can you? But "dropping your guard" against what? Despite intensive internet research, I've yet to find any indication whatsoever that Russia intends (or has ever intended) to invade the Baltic States after they were granted their independence in 1991.

And, let's face it, if such an invasion was actually on the cards, there's nothing at all to stop the Ivans from doing exactly that! If they really were serious, they'd be on the Baltic coast in about six hours and waving friendlily at the NATO wallahs offshore.

The same is true of Ukraine. The Ivans, if they pushed it a bit, would roll over the place in something like 24 hours. And what would the US and NATO do? Nothing! They wouldn't be able to prevent it! Instead, we'd be hearing screams from everywhere (actually only from the US) to "embargo the shite out of the place". Well, sure, why not? It's worked so very well to date, hasn't it?

And so we come to the core of the "problem". The US wants to be the absolute world power ("US exceptionalism", and all that). The only other countries that could "disagree" with that - and present a real obstacle - are China, Russia and, possibly, India at a later date. So the Septics went very early after 1991 into demonising Russia as the "new terror" and in addition presenting themselves as the "saviours of world democracy". We all know how that worked out, don't we?

Russia has always emphasised that it's interested in world trade first and foremost. No ambitions to "rule the world" have ever been articulated, although, understandably, I suppose, the Septics suspect that their own world-power aspirations are being usurped by others and want to do everything to prevent that.

The conclusion is that the present rift in international relations is not because the Russians are reluctant to "give up" their world power but because the US wants to eliminate them as a competitor in the power stakes. That's why the Septics have mindlessly driven their programme to "surround" Russia - which is why they wanted the Baltic States in NATO in the first place and why they want Ukraine to do the same.

The whole, tragic mess is not something the Russians started, nor is it something they want to continue. They (the Russians) see no reason why the world can't trade on an equal basis, but the Septics have an entirely different view of things.

MsG
74D36424-A7AC-4ACE-A6F1-B637FDE83AA9.jpeg
 
Russia has always emphasised that it's interested in world trade first and foremost. No ambitions to "rule the world" have ever been articulated,
Oh that's very good.
See, it's like this. Trade depends on whether the world wants their product. What does Russia actually manufacture? But it does need to export it's raw materials. Peter learned how to build ships for export of materials or to have a navy. He achieved both but neither the Tsarists or the Communists exactly filled socialist kitchens with western Goods.
I do believe that the original Communist manifesto was that that the belief should be exported by any means possible including by the undermining of other cultures, peacefully or by military action. Now Given that Russia has transited from Oligarchy back to Tzarist in methodology I wonder how your assertions stack up?
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Oh that's very good.
See, it's like this. Trade depends on whether the world wants their product. What does Russia actually manufacture? But it does need to export it's raw materials. Peter learned how to build ships for export of materials or to have a navy. He achieved both but neither the Tsarists or the Communists exactly filled socialist kitchens with western Goods.
I do believe that the original Communist manifesto was that that the belief should be exported by any means possible including by the undermining of other cultures, peacefully or by military action. Now Given that Russia has transited from Oligarchy back to Tzarist in methodology I wonder how your assertions stack up?
Russia needs to export its raw materials/natural resources precisely because it doesn't really manufacture anything beyond military kit. It's got nothing to offer.

Vlad and his mates are sucking and digging stuff out of the ground to fill their own bank accounts, not to secure the long-term future of the country. End of story.

It's actually a sad contrast with the Soviet era, when - even though much of it was applied to the arms race - the Soviets' pursuit of pure science/research was on a very impressive scale.

The foreign excursions are to attempt to divert a population which has become far less gullible. Hence the ramp-up of the rhetoric.
 
Vlad and his mates are sucking and digging stuff out of the ground to fill their own bank accounts, not to secure the long-term future of the country. End of story.
The foreign excursions are to attempt to divert a population which has become far less gullible. Hence the ramp-up of the rhetoric.
In short, it's a kleptocracy with pretensions (to Royalty in a feudal sense?)

The kleptocrats are aided and abetted in their quest by the deeply ingrained, under-informed, passionately-held sentiments of a largely under-educated, fiercely patriotic popuilation, much/most of it still as feudal/agricultural/near-perpetually Stolichnaya-ed as were the victorious generation of May 1945, lauding that bloke from the Meerkat adverts as though he were Peter The Great or Stalin, reborn.

That there is a recipe, IMHO, for economic collapse and - perhaps - revolution, at some point ere long.

But WTF do I kno, reelly?
 
In short, it's a kleptocracy with pretensions (to Royalty in a feudal sense?)

The kleptocrats are aided and abetted in their quest by the deeply ingrained, under-informed, passionately-held sentiments of a largely under-educated, fiercely patriotic popuilation, much/most of it still as feudal/agricultural/near-perpetually Stolichnaya-ed as were the victorious generation of May 1945, lauding that bloke from the Meerkat adverts as though he were Peter The Great or Stalin, reborn.

That there is a recipe, IMHO, for economic collapse and - perhaps - revolution, at some point ere long.

But WTF do I kno, reelly?
Esssentially, over the centuries, the "Muscovite Mindset" has made for a deeply entrenched "rentier economy" (during which the Communist years were just a more inefficient nationalised rentier economy). By rentier economy, I mean that the kingpin beetle on top of the dung heap rents out sectors/sections of the economy (whether it be agricultural land, mineral extraction rights, industrial manufacturing permits, trade routes, etc.) to favourites in return for their support. They are supposed to make a profit for themselves and pay a percentage in return back to the kingpin. Between them they allocate just enough of the returns to keep the serfs/workers satisfied while telling them that "they've never had it so good", that "the homeland is under threat by malicious foreign powers" and that in any case "it's all much worse over there".
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Esssentially, over the centuries, the "Muscovite Mindset" has made for a deeply entrenched "rentier economy" (during which the Communist years were just a more inefficient nationalised rentier economy). By rentier economy, I mean that the kingpin beetle on top of the dung heap rents out sectors/sections of the economy (whether it be agricultural land, mineral extraction rights, industrial manufacturing permits, trade routes, etc.) to favourites in return for their support. They are supposed to make a profit for themselves and pay a percentage in return back to the kingpin. Between them they allocate just enough of the returns to keep the serfs/workers satisfied while telling them that "they've never had it so good", that "the homeland is under threat by malicious foreign powers" and that in any case "it's all much worse over there".
See also the ANC.
 

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