The Baltics: should Britain be rushing to their defence?

I was just making the point that Putin will spin the state of the Russian minority when it suits him, whether the locals are nice to them or not. Who he learned this form would be along list of historical examples by many different countries. The most obvious recent one would be the Sudetenland in the 30's. I might add that the Czars used to lie like troopers [Potenkin villages etc.], the Soviets were not exactly to be relied on either and now Putin tells porkies. There's a connection here that runs back for several hundred years.
Its very true, the Russians are self declared liars. They actually fused lies/elements of maskirovka, with high strategy and operational art.. I just take the view, like Peter the Great, the modern czar has not invented some evil but using our own methods against us.

Were the Sudeten germans in distress ? I have read things which suggested the issue was complex.. The obvious way to beat putin I suggested, was to lift the Russian minority and integrate them as much as possible so their isn't any fertile ground and the money spent on deploying troops might have being better spent on services on the Russian border.
 

Zhopa

War Hero
Its very true, the Russians are self declared liars. They actually fused lies/elements of maskirovka, with high strategy and operational art.. I just take the view, like Peter the Great, the modern czar has not invented some evil but using our own methods against us.

Were the Sudeten germans in distress ? I have read things which suggested the issue was complex.. The obvious way to beat putin I suggested, was to lift the Russian minority and integrate them as much as possible so their isn't any fertile ground and the money spent on deploying troops might have being better spent on services on the Russian border.
However, now you hit another mentality. There are Latvians who see themselves as gifted and others who just want to grab as much cash as possible - 'We're in the West now so we needs the cars, etc.''
The 'gifted' and the avaricious will both use the race card and look what they did to us to put down the Ruspop - some of whom have longer residency than those self-proclaiming Latvians whose grandfathers and grandmothers were from Prussia, Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Belorussia, Ukraine or indeed Russia; that appeals to the 'peasants'

It is a crazy mentality that is difficult to reason with.

On the other hand, until Russia can elect a government of normality standfast @Condottiere the NATO will try to contain her and the inherent instability in that approach will continue.

Latvia (et al) should absolutely try to integrate Russian speakers born within her borders... it will take a long time.
 
Were the Sudeten Germans in distress ? I have read things which suggested the issue was complex.
Not to the Nazi propaganda machine it wasn't.
The obvious way to beat Putin I suggested, was to lift the Russian minority and integrate them as much as possible so their isn't any fertile ground and the money spent on deploying troops might have being better spent on services on the Russian border.
I get that, I just don't think that stops Putin lying about the oppression of the minority as an excuse for 'intervention'. The Russian minority should be neither advantaged nor disadvantaged by their perceived 'racial nationality', either of which brings trouble from one side or the other.
 
However, now you hit another mentality. There are Latvians who see themselves as gifted and others who just want to grab as much cash as possible - 'We're in the West now so we needs the cars, etc.''
The 'gifted' and the avaricious will both use the race card and look what they did to us to put down the Ruspop - some of whom have longer residency than those self-proclaiming Latvians whose grandfathers and grandmothers were from Prussia, Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Belorussia, Ukraine or indeed Russia; that appeals to the 'peasants'

It is a crazy mentality that is difficult to reason with.

On the other hand, until Russia can elect a government of normality standfast @Condottiere the NATO will try to contain her and the inherent instability in that approach will continue.

Latvia (et al) should absolutely try to integrate Russian speakers born within her borders... it will take a long time.
Or . . . Latvia (Lithuania and Estonia), could pay "generous" relocation expenses, to those dissatisfied, uncomfortable, now living in "the West", and who feel they would be happier moving/living East !! ;) .
 

Just_plain_you

War Hero
Or . . . Latvia (Lithuania and Estonia), could pay "generous" relocation expenses, to those dissatisfied, uncomfortable, now living in "the West", and who feel they would be happier moving/living East !! ;) .
Why? All those who wanted to leave can see how shit it actually is in Mother Russia and re-locate to other EU countries. There is literally no-one left who wants to go to East. The vast majority of Russians in Latvia consider themselves Russian Speaking Latvians.
 
Why? All those who wanted to leave can see how shit it actually is in Mother Russia and re-locate to other EU countries. There is literally no-one left who wants to go to East. The vast majority of Russians in Latvia consider themselves Russian Speaking Latvians.
Not sure you can generalise.

Far more nuanced than that.
 
Or . . . Latvia (Lithuania and Estonia), could pay "generous" relocation expenses, to those dissatisfied, uncomfortable, now living in "the West", and who feel they would be happier moving/living East !! ;) .
Mate, they know which side their bread is buttered ;)
 

Zhopa

War Hero
The vast majority of Russians in Latvia consider themselves Russian Speaking Latvians.
Not sure you can generalise.

Far more nuanced than that.
True, but it's fair to say that even those Russian speakers who consider themselves to be Russian not [insert Baltic nationality here], and may even be contented and proud to do so, are for the most part also quite happy to not have to actually live in Russia because the differences with the other side of the border are so clear.
 
However, now you hit another mentality. There are Latvians who see themselves as gifted and others who just want to grab as much cash as possible - 'We're in the West now so we needs the cars, etc.''
The 'gifted' and the avaricious will both use the race card and look what they did to us to put down the Ruspop - some of whom have longer residency than those self-proclaiming Latvians whose grandfathers and grandmothers were from Prussia, Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Belorussia, Ukraine or indeed Russia; that appeals to the 'peasants'

It is a crazy mentality that is difficult to reason with.

On the other hand, until Russia can elect a government of normality standfast @Condottiere the NATO will try to contain her and the inherent instability in that approach will continue.

Latvia (et al) should absolutely try to integrate Russian speakers born within her borders... it will take a long time.
Russia will never elect a government of normality.. Just the same as China isn't overly normal, or even somewhere like the US is hardly a paragon of virtue, as much as it thinks it is.. They are all empires who exploited large open spaces and carry all the psychological imbalances of both fearing outsiders and being big enough to crush anything smaller. To an extent, they are like a 6ft 6in oversized, special needs lump terrifying other kids and adults to boot.

On that basis, the Latvian minorities can never be entirely integrated, just as the west struggles to integrate its myriad of new citizenry.. Some form of decentralisation and local government and opportunities should keep a lid on them.
 
Not to the Nazi propaganda machine it wasn't.

I get that, I just don't think that stops Putin lying about the oppression of the minority as an excuse for 'intervention'. The Russian minority should be neither advantaged nor disadvantaged by their perceived 'racial nationality', either of which brings trouble from one side or the other.
To intervene you need martyrs, you need stories of woe and oppression and a strong sense of intolerance... The Baltic states are subject to EU law and I seriously doubt Brussels would allow them to ever oppress the Russian minorities enough is unlikely.
 
Russia will never elect a government of normality.. Just the same as China isn't overly normal, or even somewhere like the US is hardly a paragon of virtue, as much as it thinks it is.. They are all empires who exploited large open spaces and carry all the psychological imbalances of both fearing outsiders and being big enough to crush anything smaller. To an extent, they are like a 6ft 6in oversized, special needs lump terrifying other kids and adults to boot.

On that basis, the Latvian minorities can never be entirely integrated, just as the west struggles to integrate its myriad of new citizenry.. Some form of decentralisation and local government and opportunities should keep a lid on them.
I understand, and appreciate, your diagnosis/explanation . . . but, disagree with the suggestion in your last sentence!!

As the UK knows - all too well - any pandering, "accomodation-of-convenience", conceded to such minorities, only gives them a (disruptive) platform of dubious "respectability", from which to publicise their corrosive, and divisive propaganda :( !!
 
To intervene you need martyrs, you need stories of woe and oppression and a strong sense of intolerance... The Baltic states are subject to EU law and I seriously doubt Brussels would allow them to ever oppress the Russian minorities enough is unlikely.
You may have an unjustified reliance, on the belief that Moscow/Russian/Soviet propaganda, is in someway related to the truth !! ;) .
 
To intervene you need martyrs, you need stories of woe and oppression and a strong sense of intolerance... The Baltic states are subject to EU law and I seriously doubt Brussels would allow them to ever oppress the Russian minorities enough is unlikely.
You'll find indignation in the Parliament of Latvia and her Ministries circa 2013/14 that Brussels did indeed censure Latvia for victimizing minorities (Russians).
 
I understand, and appreciate, your diagnosis/explanation . . . but, disagree with the suggestion in your last sentence!!

As the UK knows - all too well - any pandering, "accomodation-of-convenience", conceded to such minorities, only gives them a (disruptive) platform of dubious "respectability", from which to publicise their corrosive, and divisive propaganda :( !!
Welcome to the inclusive EU! ;)
 
Russia will never elect a government of normality.. Just the same as China isn't overly normal, or even somewhere like the US is hardly a paragon of virtue, as much as it thinks it is.. They are all empires who exploited large open spaces and carry all the psychological imbalances of both fearing outsiders and being big enough to crush anything smaller. To an extent, they are like a 6ft 6in oversized, special needs lump terrifying other kids and adults to boot.

On that basis, the Latvian minorities can never be entirely integrated, just as the west struggles to integrate its myriad of new citizenry.. Some form of decentralisation and local government and opportunities should keep a lid on them.
Diplomatic historians will refer to this as the "Six-Foot Mong Doctrine"
 
To intervene you need martyrs, you need stories of woe and oppression
First statement no , second statement yes and those stories don't have to be true. Remember we poisoned the Skripals to divert attention from the EU crisis.
 

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