The Baltics: should Britain be rushing to their defence?

People are different. Some are fighting against evil even if it means their death, death of their relatives and numbers if innocent people (it is good people). Another ready to choose evil for additional food and safety. Third (as German, Italian, Polish, Baltic, Ukrainian and other nationalists) choosed evil willingly, and, for example, started mass murders of Jews, Poles and Russians even without direct order (sometimes - before actual came of German forces).
Talking about modern politic, we must understand lessons of history, and tell who was good (and are good role models) and who was bad (and are bad role models).
Problem with modern Baltic regimes is that they choosed bad role models as 'good'. They don't glorificate those, who were fighting against Nazies, and glorificate those, who were Nazi-collabarants and murders of peaceful people.
But it is a minor problem. Major problem, that their masters from NATO, USA and EU accept loyality to Nazies as loyality to West, and associate themselves not with USSR and its Allies, but with Nazies. Thats why EU is offenly named as 4th Reich.
Oh lucky you, never having to experience WW2 and be captured and maybe given that choice.

And as per usual, your simplistic view of history is very one sided.
 

Grey Fox

*Russian Troll*
Oh lucky you, never having to experience WW2 and be captured and maybe given that choice.
Most of us will have experience of WW3. How will we act - depends, in particular, from our current understanding of the history of previouse wars.
And yes, most of Nazi volonteers (especially from Baltic states) were not 'captured'. They started to kill local Jews right after retreat of Soviet forces even before German forces came.

And as per usual, your simplistic view of history is very one sided.
Oh, no. I know their reasons - political, ideological, moral, even economical. But my understanding don't do it 'good'.
 
"Grey Fox, post: 9268909, member: 155341"]Most of us will have experience of WW3. How will we act - depends, in particular, from our current understanding of the history of previouse wars.
And yes, most of Nazi volonteers (especially from Baltic states) were not 'captured'. They started to kill local Jews right after retreat of Soviet forces even before German forces came.
How you will act will depend upon who you are and your personality.

And you, @Grey Fox, I suspect would start killing people just because they aren't Russian.

And probably even if they were Russian, you'd kill them just because they looked 'funny'.
 
Elements of 2 REI* in Estonia:

* 2 REI = Deuxieme Regiment Etranger d'Infanterie = Second Foreign Infantry Regiment (of the French Foreign Legion).
 
Elements of 2 REI* in Estonia:

* 2 REI = Deuxieme Regiment Etranger d'Infanterie = Second Foreign Infantry Regiment (of the French Foreign Legion).
VBCI and what looks like FAMAS Felin. Will they get the UK416? Or retain the FAMAS for a while?
 
VBCI and what looks like FAMAS Felin. Will they get the UK416? Or retain the FAMAS for a while?
They will get the HK416F in due course - not sure of timings.
 
That was rather diplomatic. The more I read of Grey Foxs posts the more I'm convinced he is a case of non compos mentis. That or the home made vodka has taken its toll.
Actually, his rants reflect what the Russian education system inculcates. After centuries of refinement under the "Muscovite Mindset", state education is there to provide citizens with the "correct" views as officially recognised by the powers that be in Moscow. Whether these views accurately reflect reality outside of this paradigm is of no relevance. He argues Moscow's case and from his warped point of view, the formulation of his arguments appears entirely logical.

@scalieback -
Regarding the question of nationality and citizenship - as pointed out in an earlier post by one of our Russian contributors, since the rise of the Russian (Muscovite) Empire, Moscow has spread its harsh rule over many peoples - all became Russian (or for a time Soviet) citizens, but only ethnic Russians were classified as Russian nationals (those belonging by blood to the Russian nation). And yes, as a Russian/Soviet Citizen, you could be classified as belonging to the Jewish nation, even if you had stopped practising or changed from the Jewish faith.
As regards religion, Russian citizens may be of varying faiths or none, but to be recognised as a true Russian one must be either practising or at least culturally an Orthodox Christian. Even in Soviet times, true Russians were implicitly recognised as those belonging to the Orthodox culture although nominally they were atheists.
We in the West are currently prone to be dismissive of the role that religion has played/plays in nation building but even the formation of our own nations have been deeply influenced by this.
 
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...
We in the West are currently prone to be dismissive of the role that religion has played/plays in nation building but even the formation of our own nations have been deeply influenced by this.
Hmmm, here it was mainly christians bashing the heads of other christians...later on the "right christians" vs the "wrong unnes". Oh, and a few times we even managed to stop bashing each other IOT have a go at pagans or the muzzies ...but only for short moments
 
@scalieback -
Regarding the question of nationality and citizenship - as pointed out in an earlier post by one of our Russian contributors, since the rise of the Russian (Muscovite) Empire, Moscow has spread its harsh rule over many peoples - all became Russian (or for a time Soviet) citizens, but only ethnic Russians were classified as Russian nationals (those belonging by blood to the Russian nation). And yes, as a Russian/Soviet Citizen, you could be classified as belonging to the Jewish nation, even if you had stopped practising or changed from the Jewish faith.
As regards religion, Russian citizens may be of varying faiths or none, but to be recognised as a true Russian one must be either practising or at least culturally an Orthodox Christian. Even in Soviet times, true Russians were implicitly recognised as those belonging to the Orthodox culture although nominally they were atheists.
We in the West are currently prone to be dismissive of the role that religion has played/plays in nation building but even the formation of our own nations have been deeply influenced by this.
Tbh, it was more the KGB’s lumping Jews in with nationalities, but done to death imo
 

The entire deployment, all arms, seems to be smaller than the Russian ground forces in Eastern Ukraine a short while ago, yet is described as the largest force deployed in to Europe under Brit command for decades . . . Sighhh, cold war memories.
 

Grey Fox

*Russian Troll*
The entire deployment, all arms, seems to be smaller than the Russian ground forces in Eastern Ukraine a short while ago, yet is described as the largest force deployed in to Europe under Brit command for decades . . . Sighhh, cold war memories.
Actually, Army of DPR (say nothing about LPR, voloneers, 'vacationers' and 'unknown BTG') is 110 thousands, so it is more than the whole British Army.
 
Actually, his rants reflect what the Russian education system inculcates. After centuries of refinement under the "Muscovite Mindset", state education is there to provide citizens with the "correct" views as officially recognised by the powers that be in Moscow. Whether these views accurately reflect reality outside of this paradigm is of no relevance. He argues Moscow's case and from his warped point of view, the formulation of his arguments appears entirely logical.
He wants to get people to react to him, and he has a pretty good idea of which buttons to push for various posters here.

@scalieback -
Regarding the question of nationality and citizenship - as pointed out in an earlier post by one of our Russian contributors, since the rise of the Russian (Muscovite) Empire, Moscow has spread its harsh rule over many peoples - all became Russian (or for a time Soviet) citizens, but only ethnic Russians were classified as Russian nationals (those belonging by blood to the Russian nation). And yes, as a Russian/Soviet Citizen, you could be classified as belonging to the Jewish nation, even if you had stopped practising or changed from the Jewish faith.
As regards religion, Russian citizens may be of varying faiths or none, but to be recognised as a true Russian one must be either practising or at least culturally an Orthodox Christian. Even in Soviet times, true Russians were implicitly recognised as those belonging to the Orthodox culture although nominally they were atheists.
We in the West are currently prone to be dismissive of the role that religion has played/plays in nation building but even the formation of our own nations have been deeply influenced by this.
I wouldn't want to jump to any definitive conclusions as to the role played by ethnicity in the Russian Empire without a much better understanding of the historical and social development there than I presently have. However, keep in mind that the Russian Empire grew in a very complex social environment over a very large area and encompassed many languages, religions, peoples, and ways of life. In doing so they tended in many cases to incorporate existing structures rather then just replacing them. Also recall that the Russian Empire was not a democracy, so there would have been no universal MP and riding structures in which to fit political relations.

From what I understand, during the late Empire period there was a rising degree of national consciousness amongst various nationalities in the Empire. To attempt to measure and accommodate this to some degree the national census during very late imperial times attempted to ask people their "national" or ethnic category by which they identified themselves. Keep in mind that ethnic identification did not necessarily correspond with arbitrary lines on a map.

In this context, it is not at all unusual for Jews to self identify as Jewish rather than Russian or Kazakh, or whatever. They had for very long in Europe felt themselves to be a separate people who had more in common with other Jews in other countries than they did with other ethnicities in their own country. If you told a Jew of that era that he had to consider himself to be an Armenian because he lived in Armenia he would have felt oppressed.

When the Bolsheviks took over they retained the "nationality" category as this was used as a means of accommodating the national aspirations of different groups by providing support for education and government in their languages. Also recall that the number of "nations" in the Soviet Union was far more than just the number of constituent republics. Within each minority there would be still smaller minorities.

With the break up of the Soviet Union the political landscape has been re-arranged. Russia itself remains a multi-national state, but some of the smaller republics tried to force themselves into the mould of being a nation-state along western European where geographic boundaries define nationalities with no accommodation for minorities in an attempt to strengthen a rather weak national identity.

The concepts of "country" and "nation" are so intertwined in the English language that it is hard to express in English how other people see things. To give you a simple example though, consider the situation in Canada. Ask a nationalist Quebecois as to what nation he belonged to, and he would say Quebec. To him, Canada is a country, but Quebec is a nation. Now ask him if the Crees, Naskapis, and others of northern Quebec are also nations, and he would in many cases say "no". But do they not also have a language, and group cultural identity you say, what makes them not also a nation just as Quebecois are a nation? In reply you would get much waffle, but it would all come down to it would not be politically convenient for the Quebecois nationalist to recognise this given his own political aspirations.

Now take this situation and multiply it by at least an order of magnitude and you get the Russian Empire and its present day successor states. The Ottoman Empire was probably similar in many respects.

This probably misses a lot of the fine detail of history and ethnography, but I think it is a useful analogy.
 
He wants to get people to react to him, and he has a pretty good idea of which buttons to push for various posters here.


I wouldn't want to jump to any definitive conclusions as to the role played by ethnicity in the Russian Empire without a much better understanding of the historical and social development there than I presently have. However, keep in mind that the Russian Empire grew in a very complex social environment over a very large area and encompassed many languages, religions, peoples, and ways of life. In doing so they tended in many cases to incorporate existing structures rather then just replacing them. Also recall that the Russian Empire was not a democracy, so there would have been no universal MP and riding structures in which to fit political relations.

From what I understand, during the late Empire period there was a rising degree of national consciousness amongst various nationalities in the Empire. To attempt to measure and accommodate this to some degree the national census during very late imperial times attempted to ask people their "national" or ethnic category by which they identified themselves. Keep in mind that ethnic identification did not necessarily correspond with arbitrary lines on a map.

In this context, it is not at all unusual for Jews to self identify as Jewish rather than Russian or Kazakh, or whatever. They had for very long in Europe felt themselves to be a separate people who had more in common with other Jews in other countries than they did with other ethnicities in their own country. If you told a Jew of that era that he had to consider himself to be an Armenian because he lived in Armenia he would have felt oppressed.

When the Bolsheviks took over they retained the "nationality" category as this was used as a means of accommodating the national aspirations of different groups by providing support for education and government in their languages. Also recall that the number of "nations" in the Soviet Union was far more than just the number of constituent republics. Within each minority there would be still smaller minorities.

With the break up of the Soviet Union the political landscape has been re-arranged. Russia itself remains a multi-national state, but some of the smaller republics tried to force themselves into the mould of being a nation-state along western European where geographic boundaries define nationalities with no accommodation for minorities in an attempt to strengthen a rather weak national identity.

The concepts of "country" and "nation" are so intertwined in the English language that it is hard to express in English how other people see things. To give you a simple example though, consider the situation in Canada. Ask a nationalist Quebecois as to what nation he belonged to, and he would say Quebec. To him, Canada is a country, but Quebec is a nation. Now ask him if the Crees, Naskapis, and others of northern Quebec are also nations, and he would in many cases say "no". But do they not also have a language, and group cultural identity you say, what makes them not also a nation just as Quebecois are a nation? In reply you would get much waffle, but it would all come down to it would not be politically convenient for the Quebecois nationalist to recognise this given his own political aspirations.

Now take this situation and multiply it by at least an order of magnitude and you get the Russian Empire and its present day successor states. The Ottoman Empire was probably similar in many respects.

This probably misses a lot of the fine detail of history and ethnography, but I think it is a useful analogy.
Thank-you for a very well thought out and argued post.
 

Grey Fox

*Russian Troll*
Thank-you for a very well thought out and argued post.
And now tell us, that you didn't know it earlier... Do you see the difference between Russians with Polish origins and ethnic Poles, living in Russia?
For example, would you say, that Konstanty Rokossowski, born in Warshawa (Russian Empire), one of the greatest Soviet warchiefs, Marchal of Soviet Union and Marchal of Polish Republic (1949-1956) was not Polish?
Can you see the difference between ethnic Poles (47 thousands living in Russia) and Polish-speakers (67 thousands living in Russia)?
I jeszcze. Ty po polsku rozumiesz?
 
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Sigh.
He wants to get people to react to him, and he has a pretty good idea of which buttons to push for various posters here. ............
 
Actually, I think seeing which posts he reacts to and which he rates positively is far more illustrative of a much wider information piece personally.
 

Grey Fox

*Russian Troll*
Actually, I think seeing which posts he reacts to and which he rates positively is far more illustrative of a much wider information piece personally.
Price-list in a Paris whorehouse:
1. To use a girl - €100/hour;
2. To watch for a consumer, using a girl - €1000/hour;
3. To watch an observer, waching a consumer, using a girl - € 10000/hour.

From another hand, there is another joke (may be, about the same whorehouse).
Paris, two Brits knocking the door:
- Bonjour, we have fifty dollars, what can we have for it?
- For fifty dollars you can go in that bush and satisfact each other orally! - door closed.
Thirty minutes later, they are knocking the door, again.
-What?!?
- To whom we have to pay the money?
 

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