The Baltics: should Britain be rushing to their defence?

Grey Fox

*Russian Troll*
Russia has ‘Jew’ as an ethnicity? As well as a religion?
There are two different words in Russian:
'Evrei' - ethnic group;
'Iudei' - religion.

An Ethnic Jew with Orthodoxal Christian religion is named 'Vykrest', an ethnic Russian, accepted Jewish religion named 'Ruskiy Iudei'.
 
There are two different words in Russian:
'Evrei' - ethnic group;
'Iudei' - religion.
Is that ‘yes’ or ‘no’?
 
The Russians in Estonia were never asked what country they prefer to live in. Borders of post-Soviet states were defined by former administartive borders. There were no plebiscites or referendums and it unleashed many conflicts.
What happened in Estonia on 3rd March 1991? As for the border, there remains disagreement because of Russia’s surrender and the 1920 Tartu Peace Treaty
 
YarS said:
Hell, no. Vladimir Zelenskiy is ethnic Jewish, but not member of Jewish Religion. Yuri Polkanov is a member of Jewish Religion, but he is not ethnic Jewish.
YarS said:
Yes. Russia is civilised country (more civilisated than the UK). Ethnicy and religion are different things here.
I asked if it is defined in law. Please show me where
 
The village of Orlovka (Mamashay) was and is mixed Russian/Ukrainian/Tatar. The population in 1939 was 818 (now 847). In 60's the memorial devoted to the fallen during WW2 was opened in the village and it contained 6 names (only Slavic ones)
View attachment 392592
Just a few days ago Tatar activists (without any aproval of authorities) established two plates with Tatar names.
Some of them could be soldiers of the Red army and some could be just Nazi collaborants, policemen.
The list was not checked. Some could just flee with the Germans. For village with only 8 hundreds of population, 57 fallen soldiers is too much to believe it blindly.
Note, the granite plate contains only a phrase
View attachment 392595
Memory for soldiers.
What soldiers? The soldiers of the Red army or any soldiers?
Reportedly there was a conflict. Local deputy proposed the Tatar activists to act using legal procedure, to get confirmations from the Central military archive to make the list correct.
But the Tatar activists rejected the offer.
So highly likely the plates were broken by local hooligans.
Anyway it was not right to act this way even if the list of the fallen (or 'fallen') was falsified.
Figures will of course vary on sources, but as I don't want to spend too long trawling the internet I'll use Wikipedia.

From the 800, assume 47% were men to adjust for more women than men, therefore say 376 men.

Of these, those that could be of an age to be conscripted say between 18 - 40 is going to be about 30 - 35%, therefore of the 376 is 131 ish.

Casualty rate of those killed in action is therefore, 29.5 million were drafted by the RED ARMY (apparently), of which an estimated 8.6 million were killed, died of wounds or MIA. Therefore approx., 29% of those conscripted were dead by the end of the war.

29% of 131 gives approx. 38 actually killed, died of wounds or MIA whilst serving in the RED ARMY.

So this leaves those who were sent into exile and may be able to be added to the list, and it's very plausible that another 20 could be added giving the figure of close to 57.

The full monument had only just been unveiled on 6 May. It was made out of granite stones, with the names engraved of 57 Crimean Tatars from the village who had either died fighting, or who had returned from the War only to be sent into the horrific conditions of exile. The work had been carried out by the descendants of the men and fellow villagers, with the details about each of the men having been painstakingly verified.
 
(1) Russia has ‘Jew’ as an ethnicity? (2) As well as a religion?
1) In Soviet times the internal passport contained so called 5th point - НАЦИОНАЛЬНОСТЬ (NATSIONALNOST' = ethnicity). Any citizen had to choose ethnicity of the parents (or one of them). Now there is no similar point in any official document. Ethnicity is regarded as a private question.
2) In Russian there is a special word to denote Jewish Faith - ИУДАИЗМ (IUDAIZM = Jewish Faith). In Soviet times and moreover now the Faith is regarded as a private business and is not mentioned in any official document.
 
1) In Soviet times the internal passport contained so called 5th point - НАЦИОНАЛЬНОСТЬ (NATSIONALNOST' = ethnicity). Any citizen had to choose ethnicity of the parents (or one of them). Now there is no similar point in any official document. Ethnicity is regarded as a private question.
2) In Russian there is a special word to denote Jewish Faith - ИУДАИЗМ (IUDAIZM = Jewish Faith). In Soviet times and moreover now the Faith is regarded as a private business and is not mentioned in any official document.
Roger, thanks. The Soviets did but it’s no longer mentioned.
 
Figures will of course vary on sources, but as I don't want to spend too long trawling the internet I'll use Wikipedia.

From the 800, assume 47% were men to adjust for more women than men, therefore say 376 men.

Of these, those that could be of an age to be conscripted say between 18 - 40 is going to be about 30 - 35%, therefore of the 376 is 131 ish.

Casualty rate of those killed in action is therefore, 29.5 million were drafted by the RED ARMY (apparently), of which an estimated 8.6 million were killed, died of wounds or MIA. Therefore approx., 29% of those conscripted were dead by the end of the war.

29% of 131 gives approx. 38 actually killed, died of wounds or MIA whilst serving in the RED ARMY.

So this leaves those who were sent into exile and may be able to be added to the list, and it's very plausible that another 20 could be added giving the figure of close to 57.
The leader of Crimean Tatar nationalists Refat Chubarov (now he lives in Ukraine)
1557753741259.png

recently commented the incident with broken granite plates installed near existing monument that contained Tatar names.
Блоги / Рефат Чубаров: Они не могли не разрушить памятник, начисто опровергающий их мифы и их монополию на победу…
Vandals completely destroyed the monument to the dead and deceased participants of the Second World War - the natives of the village
There is a key expression - 'participants of the Second World War'. The side that some 'participants' joined is not specified.
Mr.Chubarov claims that 57 villagers were concripted in the Red army (it is possible). Some died during the war and some returned and died later - after the war.
 
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Grey Fox

*Russian Troll*
@YarS can you create a new thread on jews and ethnicity please and then fxck off and scribble on that?

Thank you.
I'm not much interested about Jews, it is @scalieback who cant understand difference between ethnicity and religion. Returning to Baltic... Can you say to him, how many ethnic Jews live in Latvia now and how many of them are members of Jewish religion and how many - Atheists?
 
The Russians in Estonia were never asked what country they prefer to live in. Borders of post-Soviet states were defined by former administartive borders. There were no plebiscites or referendums and it unleashed many conflicts.
I never said there was a plebiscite. In your wildest dreams do you think soviet Russia or Russia would set up a free and fair vote :eek:.

No the BBC interviewed (2-3 years ago) a number of ethnic Russia people living on the border and asked if they wanted to live in Russia under Putin and they all said no. Now that is not a definitive survey but they all said their life was better and freer under a more democratic government.
 
I never said there was a plebiscite. In your wildest dreams do you think soviet Russia or Russia would set up a free and fair vote :eek:.

No the BBC interviewed (2-3 years ago) a number of ethnic Russia people living on the border and asked if they wanted to live in Russia under Putin and they all said no. Now that is not a definitive survey but they all said their life was better and freer under a more democratic government.
The key expression here is "the BBC interviewed". It was not well established poll but random inveviews and only a few opinions were published.
Yes, there are some Russians who adapted to Estonian realities, have profitable business.
One of them Maksim Liksutov who was born in Estonia and had business here.
1557760425743.png

However, Russia gives much more prospects for able businessmen.
Now mr.Liksutov is vice-mayor of ... Moscow and one of the wealthiest Russians with estimated $650 mln. fortune.
 
The leader of Crimean Tatar nationalists Refat Chubarov (now he lives in Ukraine)
View attachment 392791
recently commented the incident with broken granite plates installed near existing monument that contained Tatar names.
Блоги / Рефат Чубаров: Они не могли не разрушить памятник, начисто опровергающий их мифы и их монополию на победу…

There is a key expression - 'participants of the Second World War'. The side that some 'participants' joined is not specified.
Mr.Chubarov claims that 57 villagers were concripted in the Red army (it is possible). Some died during the war and some returned and died later - after the war.
Maybe.

If any of them were in fact in the German army it could be that some, or indeed many, had the awful choice of staying as POWs and dying of starvation, disease or beatings or joining the Germans as the lesser of two evils.

What they did after that and how they treated others when in German uniform would be how to judge them. But if you were in their position, what would you have done given that a high proportion of Soviet POWs died in captivity?

Maybe you would have stood on your principles, not joined with slim chances of surviving, most likely starving to death.

Then again you may have joined with at least a better chance of living.

Here's some seemingly ex soviets serving in the German army in Normandy. I don't think they were very keen fighters for the Fatherland as I understand it:

LARGE NUMBERS OF PRISONERS FROM THE GERMAN ARMED FORCES ARE TAKEN BY BRITISH 2ND ARMY AS THE FIGHTING IN NORMANDY DRAWS TO A CLOSE (PART 5) [Allocated Title]

LARGE NUMBERS OF PRISONERS FROM THE GERMAN ARMED FORCES ARE TAKEN BY BRITISH 2ND ARMY AS THE FIGHTING IN NORMANDY DRAWS TO A CLOSE (PART 1) [Allocated Title]
 

Grey Fox

*Russian Troll*
If any of them were in fact in the German army it could be that some, or indeed many, had the awful choice of staying as POWs and dying of starvation, disease or beatings or joining the Germans as the lesser of two evils.
People are different. Some are fighting against evil even if it means their death, death of their relatives and numbers if innocent people (it is good people). Another ready to choose evil for additional food and safety. Third (as German, Italian, Polish, Baltic, Ukrainian and other nationalists) choosed evil willingly, and, for example, started mass murders of Jews, Poles and Russians even without direct order (sometimes - before actual came of German forces).
Talking about modern politic, we must understand lessons of history, and tell who was good (and are good role models) and who was bad (and are bad role models).
Problem with modern Baltic regimes is that they choosed bad role models as 'good'. They don't glorificate those, who were fighting against Nazies, and glorificate those, who were Nazi-collabarants and murders of peaceful people.
But it is a minor problem. Major problem, that their masters from NATO, USA and EU accept loyality to Nazies as loyality to West, and associate themselves not with USSR and its Allies, but with Nazies. Thats why EU is offenly named as 4th Reich.
 

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