The Baltics: should Britain be rushing to their defence?

Grey Fox

*Russian Troll*
Is being a member of the Jewish religion an ethnicity?
No. Do being a member of the Anglican church an ethnicity?
Englishman (different from Irish or Scot) - ethnicity; Anglican (different from Roman or Orthodoxal) - religion.
Ethnically Jewish (different from Arab or Russian) - ethnicity; member of Jewish religion (different from Christians and Muslims) - religion.
Different things, not like "apples and oranges" but like "warm and soft".
 
The village of Orlovka (Mamashay) was and is mixed Russian/Ukrainian/Tatar. The population in 1939 was 818 (now 847). In 60's the memorial devoted to the fallen during WW2 was opened in the village and it contained 6 names (only Slavic ones)
View attachment 392592
Just a few days ago Tatar activists (without any aproval of authorities) established two plates with Tatar names.
Some of them could be soldiers of the Red army and some could be just Nazi collaborants, policemen.
The list was not checked. Some could just flee with the Germans. For village with only 8 hundreds of population, 57 fallen soldiers is too much to believe it blindly.
Note, the granite plate contains only a phrase
View attachment 392595
Memory for soldiers.
What soldiers? The soldiers of the Red army or any soldiers?
Reportedly there was a conflict. Local deputy proposed the Tatar activists to act using legal procedure, to get confirmations from the Central military archive to make the list correct.
But the Tatar activists rejected the offer.
So highly likely the plates were broken by local hooligans.
Anyway it was not right to act this way even if the list of the fallen (or 'fallen') was falsified.
We all know how that works: Everyone somewhat disliked by the powers to be, is declared "Nazi" "nazi-colaborator" or "Fascist".
Just like the SPD members in germany beeing detained in the same camps by the sovjets, they have been detained in by the Nazies a few month before...
 

Grey Fox

*Russian Troll*
We all know how that works: Everyone somewhat disliked by the powers to be, is declared "Nazi" "nazi-colaborator" or "Fascist".
Some of Crymean Tatars were heroic (actually - 8 Heroes of USSR and 1 Hero of Polish respublic). For example, pilots Abduraim Reshidov (220 bomber flights) and Ahmedkhan Sultan (11 shooted down German planes at personal count and plus 19 - by his groups). But too many of others were traitors and collaborants, and it was confirmed by both Soviet and German documents (for example, without their active help German would not able to find all Jews in Crymea). Usual procedure of individual courts and individual punishments would mean elimination of the ethnic group, so, act of mercy (deportation instead of the execution/long time imprisoning) was choosen.
 
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YarS said:
Scalieback said:
Is being a member of the Jewish religion an ethnicity?
No. Do being a member of the Anglican church an ethnicity?
Englishman (different from Irish or Scot) - ethnicity; Anglican (different from Roman or Orthodoxal) - religion.
Ethnically Jewish (different from Arab or Russian) - ethnicity; member of Jewish religion (different from Christians and Muslims) - religion.
Different things, not like "apples and oranges" but like "warm and soft".
But you said Zelenskiy’s ethnicity was Jewish. More @YarS lies:
YarS said:
I just try to explain. It is you failed to understand (as usual). Look at the elected president of Ukraine - Vladimir Zelenskiy:
Ethnic group: Jewish.

Religion: Atheist.
First language: Russian.
Citezenship: Ukrainian.
State of birth: USSR.
Current political orientation: Underseptic.
 

Grey Fox

*Russian Troll*
But you said Zelenskiy’s ethnicity was Jewish.
Yes. Ethnically he is a Jewish. By religion he is an Atheist. By citezenship - Ukrainian. By first language - Russian-speaking. What can be unclear?
Religion and ethninicity are different things. Englishman (ethnic group) can be Anglican or can be Atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, Orthodoxal, Jewish (by religion) or anything else.
Jewish (ethnic group) can be Jewish (by religion), Atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, Orthodoxal, Anglican or anything else.
 
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We all know how that works: Everyone somewhat disliked by the powers to be, is declared "Nazi" "nazi-colaborator" or "Fascist".
Just like the SPD members in germany beeing detained in the same camps by the sovjets, they have been detained in by the Nazies a few month before...
Alas it is a historical fact. Thousands Crimean Tatars joined as volunteers to Nazi forces, formed local police, took part in anti-partisan operations. Thousands defected from the Red army. It is a bitter truth.
At the same time a lot of Crimean Tatars fought bravely in the ranks of the Red army. It is not forgotten.
1557725356603.png

He is a famous pilot Amet-Khan Sultan who downed 30 Geman planes. His monuments were established in Crimea and different parts of Russia.
1557725630533.png

1557725682341.png

1557725771338.png


It is very important to separate real heroes from collaborants and just random people.
 
Yes. Ethnically he is a Jewish. By religion he is an Atheist. By citezenship - Ukrainian. By first language - Russian-speaking. What can be unclear?
Religion and ethninicity are different things. Englishman (ethnic group) can be Anglican or can be Atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, Orthodoxal, Jewish (by religion) or anything else.
Jewish (ethnic group) can be Jewish (by religion), Atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, Orthodoxal, Anglican or anything else.
And we’re back to “Is being a member of the Jewish religion an ethnicity?”
 
87,5% are ethnically Russians, less than 5% are Estonians. More than half are Russian citizens.
And when asked they overwhelmingly said they did not want to be part of Russia thank you, it is much better living under a better government.
 
And when asked they overwhelmingly said they did not want to be part of Russia thank you, it is much better living under a better government.
The Russians in Estonia were never asked what country they prefer to live in. Borders of post-Soviet states were defined by former administartive borders. There were no plebiscites or referendums and it unleashed many conflicts.
 

Grey Fox

*Russian Troll*
And when asked they overwhelmingly said they did not want to be part of Russia thank you, it is much better living under a better government.
Depends from how to ask them, and what are actual actions of their government. For example, restriction of Russian schools annoy them very much.
And when you ask them to give some money to support Russians of Donbass, they give it, because they clearly understand that local Aborigens can (potentionally) be agressive, and they (Russians of Baltic) can be needed in such help, too.
And yes, in election of Russian president, in Baltic states Putin got higher percent than in Russia, for example, in Estonia he got 94% of votes.
 
No, so why do you say "Ethnically he is a Jewish"
There are Bosniaks - Bosnian Muslims or just the Muslims. It is a separate ethnical group, it is a separate 3mln. people.
Some Bosnian Muslims could be Atheists or even Christian. For example Emir Kusturica is a well known filmmaker, actor and musician. He has been recognized for several internationally acclaimed feature films, as well as his projects in town-building, in Bosnia and Herzegovina. He has competed at the Cannes Film Festival on five occasions and won the Palme d'Or twice.
Emir Kusturica was born in non-observant Muslim family in Sarajevo. So ethnically he is Bosnian Muslim but he became Orthodox Christian.
So a Muslim could be Christian. It is a paradox only from the first glance. In this context 'Muslim' could point to the Faith and to ethnical origin.
Equally 'Jew' could point to the Faith and to the ethnical origin as well.
 

Grey Fox

*Russian Troll*
No, so why do you say "Ethnically he is a Jewish"
Because Jewish can be religion or ethnicity.
We can say, ethnically he is an Englishman, and by religion he is an Anglican. So we can say, that someone ethnically is a Jewish and he is a Jewish by his religion. There is one word for Jewish ethnic and religion in English language, so here is the root of your misunderstanding.
An Ethnical Jewish can be member of another religion, as Goi can be a member of Jewish religion. There are different words for it in Russian and Hebrew:

‏יַהֲדוּת‏‎ - means religion, and
‏עברית‏‎ (for example הפועל העברי) — means ethnicity.
 
Because Jewish can be religion or ethnicity.
We can say, ethnically he is an Englishman, and by religion he is an Anglican. So we can say, that someone ethnically is a Jewish and he is a Jewish by his religion. There is one word for Jewish ethnic and religion in English language, so here is the root of your misunderstanding.
An Ethnical Jewish can be member of another religion, as Goi can be a member of Jewish religion. There are different words for it in Russian and Hebrew:

‏יַהֲדוּת‏‎ - means religion, and
‏עברית‏‎ (for example הפועל העברי) — means ethnicity.
‘Abrit’ and ‘ethnic player’
Anyway, how do you define ‘Jew’ as an ethnicity? It’s a religion. He may have Jewish heritage, but that’s his religious background not an ethnicity
 
There are Bosniaks - Bosnian Muslims or just the Muslims. It is a separate ethnical group, it is a separate 3mln. people.
Some Bosnian Muslims could be Atheists or even Christian. For example Emir Kusturica is a well known filmmaker, actor and musician. He has been recognized for several internationally acclaimed feature films, as well as his projects in town-building, in Bosnia and Herzegovina. He has competed at the Cannes Film Festival on five occasions and won the Palme d'Or twice.
Emir Kusturica was born in non-observant Muslim family in Sarajevo. So ethnically he is Bosnian Muslim but he became Orthodox Christian.
So a Muslim could be Christian. It is a paradox only from the first glance. In this context 'Muslim' could point to the Faith and to ethnical origin.
Equally 'Jew' could point to the Faith and to the ethnical origin as well.
Russia has ‘Jew’ as an ethnicity? As well as a religion?
 

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