The AT trade is imploding

#1
Gentleman, pin your ears back.

The trade as we know it is imploding, the combination of licensing( A few WOs with a grudge making judgements dependant on a whim) and a lot of thick officers has lead us to the situation where:

junior officers wont say no to SNCOS (too scared of being ds by them on licensing)

WOs are untouchable in the regt (they control the panel so in effect control who does stt therefore have a huge say in who gets promoted SNCO and officer included)

the trade will be lost to the engrs (quite right in my view, at least they have the capable officers and wos to get a grip)

the AT trade seem to want to old the RLC to ransom over continuance, why do we think we are worth more than what we are pais already


I expect rebuttals and disagreements, but as i will enter the trade very soon, this seems to be all too obvious even from "sleepy k"
 
#2
Are you for real, or someone in disguise fishing for bites?

"junior officers wont say no to SNCOS" and quite rightly so. :lol:
 
#4
I think your spell checker may be broken.
 
#5
sunningdale123 said:
Gentleman, pin your ears back.

junior officers wont say no to SNCOS (too scared of being ds by them on licensing)

WOs are untouchable in the regt (they control the panel so in effect control who does stt therefore have a huge say in who gets promoted SNCO and officer included)

the trade will be lost to the engrs (quite right in my view, at least they have the capable officers and wos to get a grip)

I expect rebuttals and disagreements, but as i will enter the trade very soon, this seems to be all too obvious even from "sleepy k"
Hmmmm...considering you are yet to join the trade, then you have a lot of issues you could get a debrief on. I am sure you are trying to wind people up. Okay then, I'll bite.

1. Junior officers have been given the benefit, through training, of [if they are competent] applying management and leadership tools to achieving mission requirements. They would be foolish if they were not to listen to experienced soldiers when using these tools. ATs are in particular intelligent [or is it cunning like a weasel] and this will always be a challenge to less competent officers. Never be afraid to say no ...but expect to back it up with logic and reasoning.

2. WOs are not untouchable. but they should be the pinnacle of their trade in the regiment. There may be a little clique of 'EOD Gods' but there are many reasonable and intelligent WO1 s in the Regt and Trade. If they all seem to be against you then the problem may be you. Oh, and OC's of Sqns submit people for STT, after listening to the advice of their SAT...Regt SAT vets it and gives his view [ok sometimes its the otherway around with the Regt SAT suggesting indivs to OC's/CO]. If an OC disagrees, he can always front up to the CO and reason his case. This system works.

3. Love to join the Engrs, they have big trucks and diggers and all sorts of stuff, great PR team too. But, they don't do ammo accounting [loggie work], they don't do ammo reconditioning [Possibly a REME task as its just a system component at the end of the day], they certainly don't do ammo accident investigation [OK give it to the SASC and RMP] - the list is endless. Face it, the AT/ATO role crosses many boundries and doesn't sit easy with any Corps.

If you really believe what you are saying, then you have two options

a. Leave - join someone else and get on with your life.

b. Pin your ears back, open your eyes and get some experience under your belt. Work hard, get professional, get promoted, become PATO and change the trade from within if you still feel strongly about things.
 
#6
sunningdale123 said:
Gentleman, pin your ears back.


the AT trade seem to want to old the RLC to ransom over continuance, why do we think we are worth more than what we are pais already


I expect rebuttals and disagreements, but as i will enter the trade very soon, this seems to be all too obvious even from "sleepy k"
sunningdale123, OK I'll have a small nibble too!
The question of continuance is a very long and complex one, but the current situation has been brought about by years of mis-management of the trade by firstly M&RO and to a lesser degree by DLSA and PATO. With the FAS (Future Army Stucture) increase in manpower of the trade the current undermanning of some 18% will increase to over 35% most of which are SNCOs. As you may learn or know you can't make instant AT SNCOs, so PATO and DRLC have a HUGE problem,namely were do they get AT SNCOs from? The current solution is to offer continuance, to hopefully manage the manpower shortfall in the medium term to allow SNCO ATs to come trough the system to fill the vaccancies.
Now to address your comment about holding (or should I say olding? :lol: ) the RLC to ransom, please explain. I get paid the same rate of pay as a Chef, the RLC asked me to extend my Colour Service, which for various private reasons I agreed to do, at a cost to myself in real terms of £15000 per annum (made up of £10000 pension I'm not getting now and still having to pay £5000 a year mortgage which would have been cleared with my gratuity). I have already missed out on one job as a civillian with a starting salary of £35000 (plus army pension) because I'm serving on continuance. If the RLC decide to make continuance more attractive, financially or otherwise, then that is their call and their money and Corps. If the RLC don't make continuance more attractive then less people will take it and hence manning problems will increase as overstretch will cause more people to quit and eventually the trade will implode as there won't be any ATs left. From personal experience spending nearly 20 months out of a 36 month posting abroad on Ops or OTX does get a bit wearing on the domestic front, and my DCOS is well used to me being away, especially when the next 18 months was spent back home, but on a pager!
Maybe if you enter the trade (I don't know if it's possible to fail the AT course anymore judging by the standard of some newly qualified ATs I've met!) and stick in it for a while you may change your mind, but whatever, I think you need to change your attitude especially when you appear to spout off about things of which you have, by your own admission, no experience! :roll:
 
#7
sunningdale123 only 3 posts. No replies. Running scared?

Jumpers for goal posts.

My oh my. It's all gone dark now.......feel so cold............... 8O
 
#8
Grumpy,

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head there and the situation ain't going to get any better.

By my reckoning, it all started back in the early 90's with Options for change followed by a period when they decided not to run basic courses.

Over the next 5 years or so a lot of WO's & SNCOs will be leaving the trade as these were the people lured into the trade to fill the 3 courses a year they were running.

Judging by the fact that you are already on contiuance you will probably know about the really lucrative "2" years they are now offering.

DRLC/PATO/M&RO need a wake up call if they think this offer will save the trade.
 
#9
Duty Rumour has it that so13 are recruiting up to 20 new posts.


Good luck to you all, I will just ease myself into the corner so I don't get killed in the stampede. :twisted:
 
#10
Indeed they are.

Although me thinks it may be too late to stem the flow of WO's who are or will take the SO13 route.

Twice as much pay for half as much work, plus actually being appreciated for what they do.

Now where would you rather be?

DRLC/PATO/M&RO need a massive kick up the arrse.
 
#11
This seems to be another indication of the mercenary attitude of those we aspire to be towards the career that has given them job security for a number of years.

I hope they sign off in anticipation then fall flat on their faces and cant get back in.

Great technicians maybe, but soldiers and leaders? no way
 
#12
sunningdale123 said:
This seems to be another indication of the mercenary attitude of those we aspire to be towards the career that has given them job security for a number of years.

I hope they sign off in anticipation then fall flat on their faces and cant get back in.

Great technicians maybe, but soldiers and leaders? no way
Now you are just showing your ignorance.

Are you sure you want to become an AT. A career where Chefs and such like get paid the same as you. Where technicians in another corps can optain degrees for all the training they have undertaken. Then of course there is the surgically implanted pager/mobile phone and the time spent away.

You obviously don't know much about the jobs out there for which head hunting ATs is the main way of recruiting.

Good luck to any who apply for SO13, I would to if I wasn't a total buffoon when it comes to that sort of thing.
 
#13
Just a quick word of warning for those who are leaving to take up civvy jobs related to their time as ATs

Current practice in Iraq is for firms to offer very lucrative contracts for short periods. As you reach the end of the period, some firms renegotiate and offer less cash or reduced benefits.

Likewise, SO13 are expanding but it is a bit of a luxury in policing terms, if the Govt feel that the threat dies down in the future, then you may find yourself out on your ear. Mind you, I can't see the threat reducing too much in the short term so, if you are coming to the end of your career, SO13 could offer at least a few more years of employment.

either way, good luck but keep your eyes open and make sure you have considered all your options before you burn your bridges.

And for Sunningdale 123 - Believe me, the time AT's spend on a pager in 11 enough to put off the most fanatic green machine loving individual.
 
#14
Sunningdale 123 seems to be quite concerned about mercenary aspects of ATs leaving, or indeed staying in the trade. It does beg the question I feel he must answer, namely why did he (or indeed she) apply to become an AT in the first place? :?
 
#15
that last comment says everything that is wrong with the trade,

my answer is this:

I want to use my brain and still be a soldier

I was interested in the design and manafacture of ammo

I have aspirations in the EOD world, incidentally within the Army.



My previous posts have been coarse, but this is a result of being genuinely dissapointed by the attitudes of those in key positions.

This trade should be the most high profile in the RLC and we are throwing it away with petty bitching (yes i am guilty of this) and a lack of leadership at all levels.

Even with my relative inexperience this is so painfully obvious, even in my short time in the army i have heard of so many injustices in the trade (11 regt seems to be a prime example esp Licensing, postings)

Gentleman please act like leaders and help inspire a generation that may be slightly naive but that is desperate to be inspired by you and to learn from you and look up to you.
 
#16
sunningdale123 said:
even in my short time in the army i have heard of so many injustices in the trade (11 regt seems to be a prime example esp Licensing, postings)
FFS....there is nothing unjust in the licensing system. You are assessed by 4 different individuals [at least]. In addition, the OC SAT and Regt SAT will also see you operate. They can't all be biased against you...unless you are a tube. Would you rather the system let unsafe individuals out on the street?

Licensing is a pain, individuals do have bad days, some people fail through self induced pressure but it is as fair as it can be and is there for a good reason.

Sunningdale, we ALL bitch sometimes and AT's are a scarce resource with lots of tasks at the moment so they are bitching a bit more than most at the moment. Why don't you just crack on and get qualified and experience it for yourself - then make your mind up. And as for poor leaders etc..well, once you are in then you can wow us with your generalship and inspired command.

Who do you think you are - feckin Napolean Bonaparte [Blown apart more like]
 
#17
Sunnigdale123, I am/was enthusiastic about the trade, however my second spell in 11 has somewhat tainted my attitude.

When others in the unit can't pass licensing, and you can, then those rare weekends you had planned to spend with family, friends or chilling out start to slip away due to constant duty. Then there's yet another 6 month tour, and don't forget the 4 week range camps which needs AT support, or freezing your nads off re-packing ammo on the range because a unit has opened everything.

So when we turn the Officers for a bit of back up where are they? On those little staff officer courses, failing another STT, getting their leave in. They only have 2 year postings, so by the time they've found their feet then another one comes in.

Forgive me if I sound bitter, but try it yourself then come back to me.

By the the way our little bit of 11 does sell the trade to the other units we meet, and in the last 18 months we have convinced at least 4 servin soldiers to change trade to AT, plus a potential officer. We also liase with local schools at carreers fairs. So it's not all lost. Our public face is very different to out private one.
 
#18
Who the Flying F*** is Sunningdale123?

Must be an Enger or something?

i will enter the trade very soon
If it's that bad then please don't, and if you already passed there must be a saving grace that attracted you - please do enlighten us. Another option is you think you're good enough but haven't actually passed yet and so are being a little presumptive.

Which ever it is, be afraid. Be very afraid!

This seems to be another indication of the mercenary attitude of those we aspire to be towards the career that has given them job security for a number of years.

I hope they sign off in anticipation then fall flat on their faces and cant get back in.

Great technicians maybe, but soldiers and leaders? no way
Those last things seem particularly bitter and twisted, you're not the LE Major that everyone is alluding to in the other thread, are you?

It's hardly mercenary to apply practiced skills for more money after leaving the services. It could be said in that case that all drivers who obtained a licence whilst in are also mercenary - especially if they got out because they were not valued or treated well enough during service, and completely if they ever earn more money.

Continuance on offer, not getting back in. Experienced, qualified SNCO and WOs who are in demand. It's not all that likely, is it?

And my last word on the wind up merchant text is this: I've never claimed to be a good soldier but I'm and adequate technician and if there were choice I feel confident more people would follow my lead than yours :!:
 
#19
Well said fatblerk, I can't really add to that. As for sunningdale123, well if he/she is on the current AT course then I hope he/she crosses my path soon (in a technical sense) so they can be enlightened and educated in the ways of the trade (not to mention life!) 8O
 
#20
Could Sunningdale123 be a JNCO who recently had the temerity to barge past the Regt SAT of 11DOE without even displaying the common courtesy to apologise after doing so?

After a quiet word in his/her shell like an attempt was made by the JNCO to instigate a formal complaint, as bless the little darling, diddums didn't like being shouted at.

Wise up you whinging, waste of rations.
 
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