The Arctic theatre

And what political power does not want to earn money from Arctic resourses? Environmentalists?
There is a difference between developing the natural resources of the Arctic and building up defences. Neither requires the other, although the former raises the stakes for the latter.

Canada's has territorial disputes with Greenland which may affect offshore oil development, but no military rivalry. On the other hand, Canada has military rivalry with Russia across the Arctic Ocean, but no disputes over valuable resources (I don't see the overlapping Lomonosov Ridge claims as being the source of serious dispute at this time).

Canada and Russia have disputes with one another, but their positions with respect to other countries on broader Arctic issues such as sovereignty and control of internal archepelagic waters are actually very closely aligned. As a result of this Canada has been trying to keep Canada-Russia Arctic relations compartmentalised from issues arising elsewhere in the world.
 

Grey Fox

*Russian Troll*
There is a difference between developing the natural resources of the Arctic and building up defences. Neither requires the other, although the former raises the stakes for the latter.

Canada's has territorial disputes with Greenland which may affect offshore oil development, but no military rivalry. On the other hand, Canada has military rivalry with Russia across the Arctic Ocean, but no disputes over valuable resources (I don't see the overlapping Lomonosov Ridge claims as being the source of serious dispute at this time).
Sure. The current Canadian strategy is 'allied with USA, attack Russia', rather then 'Allied with Russia, attack USA'.
SAVE_20190407_221704.jpeg

This choice is based first of all, on the correst understanding that there can be more profit in Syberia, than in Septic mainlands, and misunderstanding that there is less risk in war against Russia, than in war against USA.
 
On Tuesday president Putin made a speech at a regional international meeting in St. Petersburg in which he said that Russia are planning for the amount of cargo to be shipped through the Russian Arctic to quadruple from 20 million tons to 80 million tons in 2025.
www.cbc.ca/news/world/russia-ambitious-arctic-program-1.5090295?cmp=rss
He said that the amount of cargo carried across the shipping lane is set to increase from 20 million tonnes last year to 80 million tonnes in 2025.
To accommodate this they are currently building 3 new heavy icebreakers. The story is unclear, but it appears they will be nuclear. They currently have 4 nuclear ice breakers, and plan to increase this number to 9 by 2035, with a total fleet of heavy icebreakers of 13 ships.
Russia currently has four nuclear icebreakers, and Putin said that three new such ships are currently under construction. By 2035, Russia stands to have a fleet of 13 heavy icebreakers, including nine nuclear-powered ones, he said.
The ports of Murmansk in the west and Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky on the Kamchatka Peninsula in the east will be expanded. Other ports in between will also be upgraded.
The Russian leader said that Russia plans to expand the ports on both sides of the Arctic shipping route — Murmansk on the Kola Peninsula and Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky on the Kamchatka Peninsula — and invited foreign companies to invest in the reconstruction project.
Other ports and infrastructure facilities along the route will also be upgraded and expanded, he said.
 
On Tuesday president Putin made a speech at a regional international meeting in St. Petersburg in which he said that Russia are planning for the amount of cargo to be shipped through the Russian Arctic to quadruple from 20 million tons to 80 million tons in 2025.
www.cbc.ca/news/world/russia-ambitious-arctic-program-1.5090295?cmp=rss


To accommodate this they are currently building 3 new heavy icebreakers. The story is unclear, but it appears they will be nuclear. They currently have 4 nuclear ice breakers, and plan to increase this number to 9 by 2035, with a total fleet of heavy icebreakers of 13 ships.


The ports of Murmansk in the west and Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky on the Kamchatka Peninsula in the east will be expanded. Other ports in between will also be upgraded.
And I can see the value to the Russians, shifting cargo faster and cheaper us always a good thing to those on the route, economically at least.

Not sure I like more nuclear powered vessels and Russian maintenance standards as a combo, but hey ho.
 

Grey Fox

*Russian Troll*
On Tuesday president Putin made a speech at a regional international meeting in St. Petersburg in which he said that Russia are planning for the amount of cargo to be shipped through the Russian Arctic to quadruple from 20 million tons to 80 million tons in 2025.
Cargo is good, but as president of Iceland said (in Russian, with slightest accent): "There is nothing more preciouse in the world, than a real friendship".
 

Grey Fox

*Russian Troll*
Just for lulz: an article in NY Times about Arctic 'Nanook-Nunalivut' exercises

Military Drills in Arctic Aim to Counter Russia, but the First Mission Is to Battle the Cold

"Instead, Private Peach said he had been counting the days since he arrived (six) and the days until he was to leave (another 15). Icicles hung from his mustache.

The temperature that day was a balmy minus 22 Fahrenheit. "
As far as I know, -22F is near -5C.
Pls, @terminal , dont tell me, that Canadian soldiers can have any problems at this temperature. If somebody think, that -5C is a challenge, what do they think about -40 or -50C?
How do they want to protect transalaskian oil pipe at winter or search 'ecological extremists, blasted it?
 
Just for lulz: an article in NY Times about Arctic 'Nanook-Nunalivut' exercises

Military Drills in Arctic Aim to Counter Russia, but the First Mission Is to Battle the Cold

"Instead, Private Peach said he had been counting the days since he arrived (six) and the days until he was to leave (another 15). Icicles hung from his mustache.

The temperature that day was a balmy minus 22 Fahrenheit. "
As far as I know, -22F is near -5C.
Pls, @terminal , dont tell me, that Canadian soldiers can have any problems at this temperature. If somebody think, that -5C is a challenge, what do they think about -40 or -50C?
How do they want to protect transalaskian oil pipe at winter or search 'ecological extremists, blasted it?
Your link is to an American newspaper. Minus 22F is -30C. That is colder than average for most parts of Canada, but I have worked outdoors in that temperature for days on end and it is not really a problem provided you are properly dressed, the humidity is low, the wind is moderate, and you keep moving. Minus 30 is actually a bit colder than average for Resolute at this time of year.

The record low for Canada is below -60C, which occurred in several places such as the Yukon Territory. The coldest places of course tend to be in the interior, rather than on the sea coast (even when frozen).

The diving part of the exercise actually took place near Tuktoyaktuk in the Northwest Territories. Tuktoyaktuk is a port at the mouth of the Mackenzie River, on the shore of the Beaufort Sea.

The Nunalivut exercises were part of the broader Nanook (polar bear) exercises which take place each year. With Nunalivut personnel from allies may get invited to participate.

Here's the CAF web site describing the annual exercises. It has not been updated yet to reflect this year's activities.
Operation NANOOK - Canada.ca

Resolute (or Resolute Bay, it is known by both names) is a small village on Cornwallis Island in the Arctic Archipelago. It is an air transportation hub for the region, with a 2,000 metre gravel runway which can accommodate small airliners. There are proposals to upgrade it to make it more suitable for military use, including paving the runway (most off the shelf military aircraft tend to be less capable of operating from the types of runways found in the north than the civilian planes which operate in the region).

There is also a naval station being developed at Nanisivik in a fiord on the northern end of Baffin Island, which is expected to become operational this summer. This is at the site of a former mine, and near the village of Arctic Bay.

The ice in the Canadian Arctic Archipelago has been rapidly melting with the warming climate, but ice conditions still remain much more difficult than has been the case on the Russian side of the ocean. This is largely because the numerous very large islands tend to prevent the summer and autumn winds from breaking up the ice, causing it to persist year round. That however is beginning to change as the rising temperature is rapidly reaching the tipping point.

By contrast the more open and exposed seas of the Russian side of the ocean have allowed the melting ice to break up and so opened the area to commercial shipping routes between Asia and Europe.

The end result though is that the development of commercial and naval shipping in Canada lags considerably behind the state of affairs in Russia and will continue to do so for several decades due to climate and geography. Commercial shipping to service the villages, towns, and mines in the area does take place, but generally only as a once a year affair that takes place in a narrow navigation window during the most favourable period in the late summer and early autumn.

As mentioned previously, the article you referenced is from an American newspaper. Although the Americans have an Arctic coast in Alaska, they pay very little attention to it except as a source of oil, and the oil fields there are rapidly running dry.

From the Canadian perspective that newspaper article over-eggs the perceived threat from Russia. The same sea ice conditions which restrict the ability of Canadian ships to operate in the region would be an even bigger barrier to Russian ships.

When you see an article like that, you need to ask whose agenda is being served. In this case, it is likely Canada's agenda. The biggest perceived threat to Canada in the Arctic is not Russia, it is the US and to a lesser extent the EU countries. Both are making aggressive claims on Canadian territory in the form of claims against Canada's internal waters in the Arctic Archipelago (the US is also making claims against Canadian territorial waters in other areas, but that is a separate issue).

Canada's diplomatic strategy in dealing with this has been based on emphasising the "threat" from Russia, and how the US claims on Canadian waters also opens up space for Russia to make similar claims on the same basis, and how this would in turn have negative effects for longer term US interests. This it is felt will cause the US to re-evaluate their position in a manner which is beneficial to Canada. The "threat" of China has recently been added to this strategy as well.

We of course cannot know for sure what inspired the Canadian government to invite an influential organ of the US press along on this exercise, but it would be consistent with Canada's diplomatic interests to take opportunities to feed them with information which supports Canada's position and to frame the issues in a manner which appeals to American preconceptions about Russia.

Although Canada and Russia have serious disagreements on a number of matters elsewhere, Canadian and Russian interests in the Arctic are actually fairly well aligned on many of the most important issues which concern Canada. This is why Canadian diplomatic strategy has been to try to compartmentalise Arctic issues from those elsewhere.
 

Grey Fox

*Russian Troll*
Your link is to an American newspaper.
Do Canadians also call USA - "America"? Didn't they call themselves (and Mexicans, Brazilians, etc) as 'Americans'?
Minus 22F is -30C.
Thanks. My mistake.

That is colder than average for most parts of Canada, but I have worked outdoors in that temperature for days on end and it is not really a problem provided you are properly dressed, the humidity is low, the wind is moderate, and you keep moving.
Thats what I mean.



The record low for Canada is below -60C, which occurred in several places such as the Yukon Territory. The coldest places of course tend to be in the interior, rather than on the sea coast (even when frozen).
Record low for Russia was -82C (if we talk about mainlands) and -89,2C for Vostok station in Antarctica.

The diving part of the exercise actually took place near Tuktoyaktuk in the Northwest Territories. Tuktoyaktuk is a port at the mouth of the Mackenzie River, on the shore of the Beaufort Sea.
If water is liquid - it is warm, you know.

The Nunalivut exercises were part of the broader Nanook (polar bear) exercises which take place each year. With Nunalivut personnel from allies may get invited to participate.

Here's the CAF web site describing the annual exercises. It has not been updated yet to reflect this year's activities.
Operation NANOOK - Canada.ca
Thanks. Did they ever played in a full-scale Russian invasion?

As mentioned previously, the article you referenced is from an American newspaper. Although the Americans have an Arctic coast in Alaska, they pay very little attention to it except as a source of oil, and the oil fields there are rapidly running dry.
Yes. But there is also enough of gas and gold.
Although Canada and Russia have serious disagreements on a number of matters elsewhere, Canadian and Russian interests in the Arctic are actually fairly well aligned on many of the most important issues which concern Canada. This is why Canadian diplomatic strategy has been to try to compartmentalise Arctic issues from those elsewhere.
Ok. If there will be a war between Russia and USA (for example, started because of Venezuela) and the US as a state will be collapsed (after lost of 100 millions of population), and Russia will not be collapsed (after lost of 30 millions of people) and invade Alaska - what would you preffer - to fight against Russia (and lost significant part of your own population) or be neutral, start 'humanitarian occupation' of northen states of Septic mainlands to save as much of people as it possible and don't allow to LatinoAmericans to get the whole territory of former Septiclandands?
 
I see the resident soviet troll is banging on about soviet superiority in snow and cold again.


One cant help but wonder if hes ever been there himself or if in fact Penguins have gone further North than him
 
Do Canadians also call USA - "America"? Didn't they call themselves (and Mexicans, Brazilians, etc) as 'Americans'?
No, never. To a Canadian "American" means a citizen of the USA.

Record low for Russia was -82C (if we talk about mainlands) and -89,2C for Vostok station in Antarctica.
This is due to their distance from the sea. A continental climate has greater extremes of annual temperature, and the further from the ocean the greater this effect.

In the case of Canada the northern part of the country is broken up into a number of very large islands (e.g. Baffin Island is the size of Sweden, while Victoria Island is larger than the UK, are a couple of examples), while Hudson Bay (more than twice the size of the North Sea) reaches deep into the northern interior of the continent. This means that Canada is on average closer to the sea than is the case for Russia.

Yes. But there is also enough of gas and gold.
The gas reserves in Alaska are unlikely to be economic for the foreseeable future due to the development of fracking in more accessible areas with better pipeline access to markets. The same is true for the gas reserves of the Mackenzie Delta in Canada.

Oil production has declined significantly in Alaska, down to about a quarter of what it was in the 1980s, as their oil fields run dry. There has been renewed interest in finding new discoveries there, but even the most optimistic estimates of possible resources would not make Alaska a significant producer on a global scale.
 

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