The 36th Ulster Division

#1
Greetings,

As I come from an Army Family I was advised by those in the know to use this site for some information. I am preparing for a Somme visit on the 1st of July, as part of a wider project I am looking at the historical connections between the Brigades and Battalions of the Division and the Orange Order. Did each Divisional unit have its own Orange Lodge? Did they "Go over the Top wearing Sashes"?

Ashley
 
#2
Before you go, have you had a look at the Somme Heritage Centre near Belfast?

Their website's a bit rubbish but it's definitely worth a visit, and if anyone could answer your questions they could. http://www.irishsoldier.org/

They even have a sort of action demo of the battle in a mock up of the trenches, with video and sound affects and smoke, if that pushes your buttons. Didn't spot any mannequins in a sash, but on the tour they do discuss the historical context of the battle and the soldiers that formed the Division.

It's very good, and it's free.
 
#4
Many Thanks. Yes the Somme Centre is v good. Currently reading Phillip Orr's, Road To The Somme. Trying to get hold of Dr Edwards, The Lost Tribe, not having any luck, seems out of print. Heard the Royal York LOL ?has some form of Military research remit. Will try and contact also.

Ashley
 
#5
The mueum in Albert (adjacent to Basilique) certainly has it that some went OTT be-sashed.

One of their tableau depicts same, but don't recall them claiming the sash used as being BotS vintage. You might also enquire of Ulster Tower.
 
#6
Read "Behold the sons of Ulster marching to the Somme" by Frank McGuinness too. Apart from its sub-text surrounding man-love - can anyone please write a play about soldiers without homoeroticism being essential to the plot? - it is pretty good. I saw it at the Abbey Theatre way back and then again at the Barbican.
 
#7
One place to find out is at the Ulster Tower. The curator, Teddy is a nice chap and likely to answer enquiries. The Ulster Twer is owned by the Friends of The Somme, who I think also run the heritage site mentioned elswahre. The loink to the organe order is evident from the banners and plaqwues in the tower.

More specifically the question baout the original 36th Division might be about the links between Orange Lodges, specific parts of Carson's UVF and the 36th Division.
 
#8
ashley36div said:
Greetings,

As I come from an Army Family I was advised by those in the know to use this site for some information. I am preparing for a Somme visit on the 1st of July, as part of a wider project I am looking at the historical connections between the Brigades and Battalions of the Division and the Orange Order. Did each Divisional unit have its own Orange Lodge? Did they "Go over the Top wearing Sashes"?

Ashley
Havent got a clue, but wouldnt that be akin to having the irish guards "making like a swastika" across no mans land in celtic tops?

Not biting or being nasty, but if people wish to have an everlasting peace in the world IMHO stuff like this should be dropped, but if its for personal research into where a family member fits in during the great war then feel free to ask but dont have a devisive "forum name" your stirring a hornets nest that you have no means of controlling.
 
#9
If you can show me a picture of men going over the top with their lodge sashes on, i'll be amazed, but sadly not too surprised. All the Irish regiments gave great service during the war to the crown, irrespective of their religious beliefs. Men of both faiths died beside each other and lived with each other throughout the war. It is for shame that this camararderie was not continued after the war...The 36th Division were one of the most respected divisions throughout the army and achieved many great things during their campaigns. None of which were reliant on an Orange sash, but on men from all sides of the community and all corners of Erin.

May i suggest the Long Long Trail. A superb tool for researching all the troops who served for king and country 1914-18. Everything is easily accessed, cross referenced and explained, should you wish to research specifics, and all the tools are their for you to investigate further any general topics of interest.

Good luck with your search.
 
#10
the_flikker said:
ut if people wish to have an everlasting peace in the world IMHO stuff like this should be dropped...


So old son, by your reckoning we should let the Box heeds off any further scrutiny and the Stalin boys and the Nips and the slavers and the IRA and the... (FFS we have to dredge this crap up to avoid doing it again (especially if in the case of the 'Unionists' the sash crap happened)).
 
#11
Suddick said:
the_flikker said:
ut if people wish to have an everlasting peace in the world IMHO stuff like this should be dropped...


So old son, by your reckoning we should let the Box heeds off any further scrutiny and the Stalin boys and the Nips and the slavers and the IRA and the... (FFS we have to dredge this crap up to avoid doing it again (especially if in the case of the 'Unionists' the sash crap happened)).


I can only express an opinion Suddick, I dont expect everyone to subscribe to it, but if you wish to sup from the well of TF.....I`ve lost many many friends to the hatred and vile deeds commited in the name of ireland, but I will never hate the Irish, in the same way as I will stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone from these small islands of ours.

My era is from 80-present day, man and boy, and if I were a spam I`d have a purple heart and more reason to hate than most, I just chose not to.

Hate and aggression gets you nowhere, (except maybe an early grave or at best prison).
 
#12
I've certainly seen photos of Lodges meeting at the Somme, with sashes, proper sashes rather than the now familiar collarette in evidence.

Don't know about going "over the top" though - Although it's certainly part of local folklore and may well have it's roots in fact.

Googled a bit to see if I could turn up any actual evidence or references, but the results were too bloody depressing to wade through. Sorry but there's only so many semi literate Bebo pages I can handle.

Good luck in your research.
 
#13
the_flikker said:
ashley36div said:
Greetings,

As I come from an Army Family I was advised by those in the know to use this site for some information. I am preparing for a Somme visit on the 1st of July, as part of a wider project I am looking at the historical connections between the Brigades and Battalions of the Division and the Orange Order. Did each Divisional unit have its own Orange Lodge? Did they "Go over the Top wearing Sashes"?

Ashley
Havent got a clue, but wouldnt that be akin to having the irish guards "making like a swastika" across no mans land in celtic tops?

Not biting or being nasty, but if people wish to have an everlasting peace in the world IMHO stuff like this should be dropped, but if its for personal research into where a family member fits in during the great war then feel free to ask but dont have a devisive "forum name" your stirring a hornets nest that you have no means of controlling.
(Re bold) - 'Nuff said... :roll:

CW

Quis Separabit

Vestigia Nulla Retrorsum
 
#14
Cuddles said:
Read "Behold the sons of Ulster marching to the Somme" by Frank McGuinness too. Apart from its sub-text surrounding man-love - can anyone please write a play about soldiers without homoeroticism being essential to the plot? - it is pretty good. I saw it at the Abbey Theatre way back and then again at the Barbican.
Seconded. Saw it in Plymouth Theatre Royal about 10 years ago. Excellent production and plot. They ran an acting program using this in a youth prison in NI a year ago which obviously struck a chord with the inmates. The message at the end was "we fight for ourselves, nobody else". Hasn't changed much to today.
 
#15
and if you want, go to St Patricks Cathedral, inside Westmisnster Cathedral. All Irish badges are there, and books with the name of every single man who fell in an Irish reg, 14-19 (dont know why)

The trouble is, the books are wrapped in a tricolour. I was there to light a candle, today, and it still pisses me off
 
#17
hmmm....not really, certainly not kidding though, its is there, with a nice wee note from the President of the Republic.

So, get writing follks

Bishop Whassisname The New One
Westminster Cathedral
London
England
Earth
Solar System
Galaxy
Universe
Existance
 
#18
TalaveraTom said:
If you can show me a picture of men going over the top with their lodge sashes on, i'll be amazed, but sadly not too surprised.
There is a painting in the Ulster Tower of men of the 36th Division depicting the moment that the Germans counter attack and the Irish are running short of ammunition and grenades. This depicts the artist's grandfather in an Orange Sash.

Regardless of whether the Ulstermen actually wore sashes on the 1st of July, that's how the Friends of the Somme would like to remember them.

I agree with you that the fact that 36th Division later fought shoulder to shoulder with the 16th Division at Messines and 3rd Ypres led to some well known instances of reconciliation. (The recovery of Nationalist MP William Redmond by Ulster stretcher bearers and Father William Doyle and the dying Ulster Soldier "Father, I am not your faith" "No but you are one of my God's children" )

Its also part of the joint heritage that the Messines Peace project has drawn on in the work reconciling groups across the sectarian divide.
 
#19
Quite right. : i.e. don't succumb to the myth that all the men in the 36th were Prods . I am afraid that even then, regiments like the Royal Irish Rifles spoilt future bigots' fantasies by, in many battallions, having 50-50 or even skewed "in favour" of Catholics, many of whom were not even from Ulster.
 
#20
Pteranadon said:
TalaveraTom said:
If you can show me a picture of men going over the top with their lodge sashes on, i'll be amazed, but sadly not too surprised.

Regardless of whether the Ulstermen actually wore sashes on the 1st of July, that's how the Friends of the Somme would like to remember them.
Sounds more like a Unionists wet dream to me.

Which soldier would sensibly put their head above the parapet and go over the top wearing a bright orange sash. Life was dangerous enough, without drawing the Germans attention to your attire. I suggest that this was a painting depicting the Protestant soldiers as heroic (Which they were), like all the lads on the front, and was done with much artistic license. The image is i'm sure very poetic, and signifies the Unionists contribution to King and Country. All very stirring for those at home...The 36th Division had no need to prove it's bravery, it had done so throughout the war with men of both faiths...Wheres the photographic proof of this event?
 

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