Thatcher killed off mining, discuss

#3
parapauk did you actually go to the link. The point is Thatcher was not responsible for the death of mining the falls are
11 years of Thatcher: 33%
11 years before Thatcher: 45%
11 years after Thatcher (Major and Blair): 72%
11 years of New Labour (Blair and Brown): 64%
Thatcher has been lambasted by a compliant press for decades. The main people responsible were, Wilson, Major, Blair and Brown. But that does not fit with the Thatcher is an evil witch narrative of the left.
 
#4
I reckon that the miners union killed off their own industry by getting too cocky.
Thatcher saw an opportunity and seized it to 'encourage the others'.

Await incoming.
 
#5
Piss poor management, production inefficiency, unions, and lack of ability to be competitive in the global market place brought the industry to its knees.

Maggie just speeded up the inevitable (and I’m no fan of hers).

Discuss?
 
#7
leveller said:
urine poor management, production inefficiency, unions, and lack of ability to be competitive in the global market place brought the industry to its knees.

Maggie just speeded up the inevitable (and I’m no fan of hers).

Discuss?
Agreed.
Look at British Leyland and Ford in the 70s.

The unions thought they were untouchable and found out that they were'nt.

PS. I'm no great fan of Thatch either.
 
#8
LPJ, I realise that it is an article of faith that most of us have that Thatcher took on and killed off mining. However the article quite clearly shows this is a myth perpetuated by the left to demonise Thatcher. It is an excellent example of how an entire population can be fed a line and take that line to be a fact. Something that the Labour PR machine have latched onto and still use today. Anyone heard "we are best placed to ride out the economic downturn". Repeat it enough and people believe it.
 
#9
roadster the numbers in terms of production
the absolute numbers, not just the percentage changes in output. This shows that, under Mrs Thatcher, output fell by roughly 30m tons compared with a fall of about 50m tons in the period before, about 60m in the period after, and about 30m in the past 11 years, when there wasn't much left to lose.
 
#10
old_n_fat said:
LPJ, I realise that it is an article of faith that most of us have that Thatcher took on and killed off mining. However the article quite clearly shows this is a myth perpetuated by the left to demonise Thatcher. It is an excellent example of how an entire population can be fed a line and take that line to be a fact. Something that the Labour PR machine have latched onto and still use today. Anyone heard "we are best placed to ride out the economic downturn". Repeat it enough and people believe it.
I don't know many people that blame Thatcher totally for the demise of the mining industry.
The miners thing was just part of a much bigger problem that existed in the UK at the time.
Were you around in those days mate?
I did the '77 fire strike and the dustbinmens strike a couple of years later.
We were always on standby for some strike or other in the 70s.

It was like that all the time so I'm not surprised that the miners imploded
 
#11
leveller said:
urine poor management, production inefficiency, unions, and lack of ability to be competitive in the global market place brought the industry to its knees.

Maggie just speeded up the inevitable (and I’m no fan of hers).

Discuss?
Poor management-
In some cases yes, many of those cases were deliberate.

Production inefficiency-
Nope, the majority of pits were very productive and very efficient. At least until they were "modernised" in a fashion that was intended to cut production. Made it easier to close them

Unions-
More responsible than Maggie, deserved everything they got. Did the average hard working miner deserve the same fate? Personally i don't think so.

Not competetive-
Weren't they? The much talked about cheaper imported coal was litteraly a few pence a ton, in a lot of cases that was more than offset by coal quality.


As to the original point of the thread, yes coal was in slow decline. Since the 1930's we have had a steady shift from coal to oil in many applications.
By the 1980's the industry was much more streamlined and profitable (coal always was profitable)
Thatcher helped kill coal but Scargill bears the most responsiblity,
Was it inevitable and necessary? No.
 
#12
jagman said:
leveller said:
urine poor management, production inefficiency, unions, and lack of ability to be competitive in the global market place brought the industry to its knees.

Maggie just speeded up the inevitable (and I’m no fan of hers).

Discuss?
Poor management-
In some cases yes, many of those cases were deliberate.

Production inefficiency-
Nope, the majority of pits were very productive and very efficient. At least until they were "modernised" in a fashion that was intended to cut production. Made it easier to close them

Unions-
More responsible than Maggie, deserved everything they got. Did the average hard working miner deserve the same fate? Personally i don't think so.

Not competetive-
Weren't they? The much talked about cheaper imported coal was litteraly a few pence a ton, in a lot of cases that was more than offset by coal quality.


As to the original point of the thread, yes coal was in slow decline. Since the 1930's we have had a steady shift from coal to oil in many applications.
By the 1980's the industry was much more streamlined and profitable (coal always was profitable)
Thatcher helped kill coal but Scargill bears the most responsiblity,
Was it inevitable and necessary? No.
Then perhaps the unions should have allowed privatisation then :wink:
 
#13
old_n_fat said:
roadster the numbers in terms of production
the absolute numbers, not just the percentage changes in output. This shows that, under Mrs Thatcher, output fell by roughly 30m tons compared with a fall of about 50m tons in the period before, about 60m in the period after, and about 30m in the past 11 years, when there wasn't much left to lose.
So 50m tons before Thatcher, 90m tons in Thatcher/Major, and 30m tons in the period after privatisation performed by Thatcher/Major that couldn't have been stopped short of renationalisation. So pre-Thatcher 50m, and 120m tons that she was responsible for.
 
#14
jagman said:
leveller said:
urine poor management, production inefficiency, unions, and lack of ability to be competitive in the global market place brought the industry to its knees.

Maggie just speeded up the inevitable (and I’m no fan of hers).

Discuss?
Poor management-
In some cases yes, many of those cases were deliberate.

Production inefficiency-
Nope, the majority of pits were very productive and very efficient. At least until they were "modernised" in a fashion that was intended to cut production. Made it easier to close them

Unions-
More responsible than Maggie, deserved everything they got. Did the average hard working miner deserve the same fate? Personally i don't think so.

Not competetive-
Weren't they? The much talked about cheaper imported coal was litteraly a few pence a ton, in a lot of cases that was more than offset by coal quality.


As to the original point of the thread, yes coal was in slow decline. Since the 1930's we have had a steady shift from coal to oil in many applications.
By the 1980's the industry was much more streamlined and profitable (coal always was profitable)
Thatcher helped kill coal but Scargill bears the most responsiblity,
Was it inevitable and necessary? No.
You don't nuke a city because the mayor is a cnut.
 
#15
leveller said:
Then perhaps the unions should have allowed privatisation then :wink:
Maybe
But then privatised utilities have not proven to be a bargain for the country have they?
Coal is/was a utility, the whole country is standing on the stuff, abundant energy.
We now face the very real prospect of being held to ransom over energy imports in coming years, all a little foolish when we have decades of energy self sufficiency under our feet isn't it?
Killing coal destroyed far more than it gained.
 
#16
Maggie was not responsible for the collapse of the mining industry. The miners threatened to commit industrial suicide. The Union had brought down the previous conservative administration and the TUC had destroyed the previous Labour government. Maggie did not stop Scargill from destroying the mining industry, albeit she was a tad overzealous in encouraging those who wanted to continue working. Scabs I think they were called, god knows where that term came from.
 
#17
The Unions held Britain by the Balls through the 70's.

The Iron Lady didn't have balls, just little ladies testiclay, so broke the Unions hold.... and the Unions. She was then able to shut down a number of pits that just weren't viable.

Why did the Miners think that Thather would back down? She'd already slapped the Argies and handed bobby sands a huge fcuk off pill.

Having said that, at least if the gas and oil drys up in the North Sea we will have plenty of Coal reserves to dig up. Might be handy to form up doley "Bevin Boys" to bring up the haul :)
 

Trans-sane

LE
Book Reviewer
#18
This "only pence a ton" fact keeps being raised. How manay tones of coal were we using??? Millions (tens or hundreds possibly) of tons a year times by pence = millions of pounds. At a time when the country was on its arse economically thanks to the labour administration of 1974-1979.

I was only born in 1982 so missed the joys of the Winter of Discontent and the 1984 miners strike (I was about 18 months old FFS). But the story seems to be the same. Publicly subsidised industry, union making relatively outrageous demands etc...

As for parapuk and the "Tebbit figures", big shock. Government compiles wrong figures and makes a decision based on them that turns out to be controversial. WMDs in Iraq anyone? Given Blair got us involved in an expensive war- both blood and treasure- for what has since been quietly admitted was a LIE rather than a statistical cock-up, will he be villified ha;f as much in 30 years time? Personally I doubt it.
 
#20
old_n_fat said:
LPJ, I realise that it is an article of faith that most of us have that Thatcher took on and killed off mining. However the article quite clearly shows this is a myth perpetuated by the left to demonise Thatcher. It is an excellent example of how an entire population can be fed a line and take that line to be a fact. Something that the Labour PR machine have latched onto and still use today. Anyone heard "we are best placed to ride out the economic downturn". Repeat it enough and people believe it.
My bold: I'm afraid it's not quite so clear. The graph uses the first year of the period as the idex for that period and assigns it the arbitrary value '100', then plots it at the same point on the graph as all the other 100s regardless of what the actual value was.

For all we know, it could be saying that a drop in production from 100,000,000 tonnes to 1,000,000 is the same as a drop from 1,000,000 to 100,000. Without the raw data it's impossible to tell.

Scargill was a ****, though, and needed his comb cutting - but that's no excuse for a Prime Minister to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
 

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