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Thames Valley Police Firearms unit cock up

#4
walting_matilda said:
Suppose the Army has never mixed live and blank rounds. Just sad really.........

Dummy (drill rounds) not blanks, surely. How could you mistake a blank round for a live one?

IIRC drill rounds have an indent in the side of the case?
 
#6
The policeman denied he had done anything wrong.

How about not checking the ammo to be used was drill rounds.

What about the old rule "never point a gun at any one - loaded or not"

As the Instructor it was his responsibility to follow all the normal safety protocols.

In the past I've had some dealings with various police firearms units, some were very worrying.
 
#9
bikertam said:
The policeman denied he had done anything wrong.

How about not checking the ammo to be used was drill rounds.

What about the old rule "never point a gun at any one - loaded or not"

As the Instructor it was his responsibility to follow all the normal safety protocols.

In the past I've had some dealings with various police firearms units, some were very worrying.

I was hanging around Downing street last month when one of the CO6 blokes dropped his weapon out the back of his vehicle. The mag came off and 2 rounds ended up in the gutter.

One of his colleague had only just been telling me about a female CO6 who had left her Glock in the khazi at Starbucks.
 
#10
bigeye said:
walting_matilda said:
Suppose the Army has never mixed live and blank rounds. Just sad really.........

Dummy (drill rounds) not blanks, surely. How could you mistake a blank round for a live one?

IIRC drill rounds have an indent in the side of the case?
Precisely, one wonders how a supposed "Firearms Instructor" could manage not to know the difference between a live round and a drill round? And what kind of an instructor points the weapon at his stidents? :roll: :roll:
Drill SAA IIRC, had white metal casings instead of brass, were indented along the case and had no percussion cap, the recess for it being painted Red?
Note the bit about the differences in handling drills between Thames Valley Police and the Met. Typical, there isn't even a common standard throughout the various Forces, something I've heard a number of ex-servicemen in the Police complaining about. What's needed IMHO, is a few former SASC WO's to develop the appropriate handling drills for the weapons in service and for this to be standardised throughout all UK forces.
 
#11
Jaeger said:
bigeye said:
walting_matilda said:
Suppose the Army has never mixed live and blank rounds. Just sad really.........

Dummy (drill rounds) not blanks, surely. How could you mistake a blank round for a live one?

IIRC drill rounds have an indent in the side of the case?
Precisely, one wonders how a supposed "Firearms Instructor" could manage not to know the difference between a live round and a drill round? And what kind of an instructor points the weapon at his stidents? :roll: :roll:
Drill SAA IIRC, had white metal casings instead of brass, were indented along the case and had no percussion cap, the recess for it being painted Red?
Note the bit about the differences in handling drills between Thames Valley Police and the Met. Typical, there isn't even a common standard throughout the various Forces, something I've heard a number of ex-servicemen in the Police complaining about. What's needed IMHO, is a few former SASC WO's to develop the appropriate handling drills for the weapons in service and for this to be standardised throughout all UK forces.
A good idea.
However unless they were to actually join the relevant Police forces they would effectively be civilian Firearms instructors and as such would be a very unpopular breed. Or so I understand.
 
#12
The court was told that PC Micklethwaite, 52, had failed a Metropolitan Police firearms instruction course, but the Thames Valley force had decided that this was due to differences between the two forces’ handling and safety drills, and that he would still receive his certificate provided that he underwent a “development programme”.

But although the certificate was issued, the extra training was never provided, Mr Matthews said.
From the article, I think this says it all. Muppets.
 
#13
I think 'cock up' is a bit of an understatement. The bloke who got shot could easily have died, and was in hospital for 22 days. He has also lost his career I presume, as I cant see him being able to work again.
 
#14
bigeye said:
Jaeger said:
bigeye said:
walting_matilda said:
Suppose the Army has never mixed live and blank rounds. Just sad really.........

Dummy (drill rounds) not blanks, surely. How could you mistake a blank round for a live one?

IIRC drill rounds have an indent in the side of the case?
Precisely, one wonders how a supposed "Firearms Instructor" could manage not to know the difference between a live round and a drill round? And what kind of an instructor points the weapon at his stidents? :roll: :roll:
Drill SAA IIRC, had white metal casings instead of brass, were indented along the case and had no percussion cap, the recess for it being painted Red?
Note the bit about the differences in handling drills between Thames Valley Police and the Met. Typical, there isn't even a common standard throughout the various Forces, something I've heard a number of ex-servicemen in the Police complaining about. What's needed IMHO, is a few former SASC WO's to develop the appropriate handling drills for the weapons in service and for this to be standardised throughout all UK forces.
A good idea.
However unless they were to actually join the relevant Police forces they would effectively be civilian Firearms instructors and as such would be a very unpopular breed. Or so I understand.
Unpopular or not a simple solution would be to tell the firearms officers if they instructors do not pass them then they lose their job. :wink:
 
S

stabradop

Guest
#16
I think that there is also a different attitude to firearms within the police. In the military an individual would be charged for things like NDs or even hoofed out if found unsafe during training. As a stab you could fail 2 things in your 2 week basic and still pass the course (APWT being an obvious one due to varying shooting experience) but one thing that you couldn't fail was the WHT. If each police service was allocated military instructors for a few years then standards would raise across the board.

I think there is also a money issue as well, bigger forces such as the Met, CoL and GMP could afford to employ military instructors however some of the poorer forces may not have the budget. I would also guess that little has been done to change the method of instruction for years, and with some exceptions probably still operate in the same way as they did in the 70's when a senior bod would authorise a few .38's to be doled out when needed. Addditionally I would imagine that any armed policeman in times gone by who was serious about shooting and safety standards would likely be a member of a civilian club as well so he/she could shoot in their own time - sadly that is not an option any more.
 
#17
Not surprising really with Thames Valley. I watched the other week with worry and amusement as a female officer in Windsor from the public order unit tried about 4 times to put a mick in the properly taught recovery position while he was chokin on his tounge, unsuccessfully, then she had to ask one of the lads (the one who ko'd him)to do it properly for her while she stood there lookin confused at the lad choking. You couldn't make it up. Surely the police have to do regular assessments on this stuff now and again as in the Army and the other services. I'd be shocked if the most junior beat officer couldnt admin proper first aid because they had forgotten it, never mind one from a specialist unit there to deal with the most violent situations? And to mistake blank rounds for live? Even a blind man would have difficulty. I bet none of the 13 year olds struttin around London with their mac-10s would make such a mistake.
 
#18
JonnoJonno said:
So the quality street box contained live .22 rounds, yet these were loaded into a .44 Magnum revolver.

Journalism at it's finest there. :roll:
oh... i read that as there being 22 bullets in the tin, rather than the calibre!
 
#19
bigbird67 said:
JonnoJonno said:
So the quality street box contained live .22 rounds, yet these were loaded into a .44 Magnum revolver.

Journalism at it's finest there. :roll:
oh... i read that as there being 22 bullets in the tin, rather than the calibre!
That's because you are right and I am entirely incorrect 8O
 
#20
JonnoJonno said:
bigbird67 said:
JonnoJonno said:
So the quality street box contained live .22 rounds, yet these were loaded into a .44 Magnum revolver.

Journalism at it's finest there. :roll:
oh... i read that as there being 22 bullets in the tin, rather than the calibre!
That's because you are right and I am entirely incorrect 8O
That being said I have no contact with bang sticks so the number 22 wouldn't immediately be related to calibre in my mind like it would to you green types!
 

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