"Terror through the Looking Glass"

#1
I must say I have been impressed by the British Arrsers sang froid and stiff upperlips that have remained buttoned about the New York terror plot.
Just because the sirens scream there is no need to indulge in an unseemly rush to the shelters.

Experts cast doubt on credibility of JFK terror plot
Published: Monday June 4, 2007

An alleged plot to blow up fuel tanks and pipelines at New York's JFK airport had little chance of success, according to safety experts, who have questioned whether the plot ever posed a real threat.

US authorities said Saturday they had averted an attack that could have resulted in "unfathomable damage, deaths, and destruction," and charged four alleged Islamic radicals with conspiracy to cause an explosion at the airport.

But according to the experts, it would have been next to impossible to cause an explosion in the jet fuel tanks and pipeline. Furthermore, the plotters seem to have lacked the explosives and financial backing to carry out the attack.

John Goglia, a former member of National Transportation Safety Board, said that if the plot had ever been carried out, it would likely have sparked a fire but little else, and certainly not the mass carnage authorities described.

"You could definitely reach the tank, definitely start the fire, but to get the kind of explosion that they were thinking that they were going to get... this is virtually impossible to do," he told AFP.

The fuel pipelines around the airport would similarly burn, rather than explode, because they are a full of fuel and unable to mix with enough oxygen.

"We had a number of fires in the US. All that happens is a big fire," he said. "It won't blow up, it will only burn."

Even if the attackers had managed to blow up a fuel tank, the impact would be limited, he said, citing the example of North Vietnamese forces attacking US fuel dumps during the Vietnam war.

"They hit the fuel tanks with pretty big rockets. You would get a big fire but not a big explosion other than the rocket."

"There is a difference between just exploding the tank and a huge explosion. The tank may explode and blow up some metal, but that certainly wouldn't go very far," he said.

His comments contrasted with those of US Attorney Roslynn Mauskopf, who insisted at the weekend that "the devastation that would be caused had this plot succeeded is just unthinkable."

Jake Magish, an engineer with Supersafe Tank Systems, also cast doubt on the credibility of the plot, saying: "The fantasy that I've heard about the people saying 'they will blow the tank and destroy the airport,' is nonsense."

"There are people there responding to hysteria, I think. But from an engineering point of view, if someone is successful in blowing a hole into a tank, they will just have a fire from one tank.

"There is no way for the fire to go from tank to tank, that is nonsense. It just won't happen."

Besides the alleged plotters' capability, other questions have focused on the main source in the probe -- a convicted drug dealer who infiltrated the group and whose sentence was pending as part of his cooperation with police.

Neal Sonnett, a former federal prosecutor, told the New York Times there was also a danger in overstating how serious or sophisticated a plot really was.

"There unfortunately has been a tendency to shout too loudly about such cases," he said. "To the extent that you over-hype a case, you create fear and paranoia," he said.

The New York Times on Sunday pointedly avoided giving much coverage to the alleged plot, devoting only a brief on its front page continued on the local section, despite the story breaking in the early afternoon on Saturday.



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Biped

LE
Book Reviewer
#2
The fact of the matter is that these bods planned a strike on US interests, on US soil, no matter how big or small. Good drills for catching them, irrespective of the hype.
 
#3
And on 'terror plots', this from Nora Ephron who wrote 'Harry met Sally,' on how to make one:


Nora Ephron| BIO
How to Foil a Terrorist Plot in Seven Simple Steps
| Posted June 4, 2007 | 12:04 AM (EST)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nora Ephron
1. In order to foil a terrorist plot, you must first find a terrorist plot. This is not easy.

2. Not just anyone can find and then foil a terrorist plot. You must have an incentive. The best incentive is to be an accused felon, looking at a long prison term. Under such circumstances, your lawyer will explain to you, you may be able to reduce your sentence by acting as an informant in a criminal case, preferably one involving terrorists.

3. The fact that you do not know any actual terrorists should not in any way deter you. Necessity is the mother of invention: if you can find the right raw material -- a sad, sick, lonely, drunk, deranged, disgruntled or just plain anti-American Muslim somewhere in the United States -- you can make your very own terrorist.

4. Now the good part begins. Money! The FBI will give you lots of money to take your very own terrorist out to lots of dinners where you, wearing a wire, can record yourself making recommendations to him about possible targets and weapons that might be used in the impending terrorist attack that your very own terrorist is going to mastermind, with your help. It will even buy you a computer so you can go to Google Earth in order to show your very own terrorist a "top secret" aerial image of the target you have suggested.

5. More money!! The FBI will give you even more money to travel to foreign countries with your very own terrorist, and it will make suggestions about terrorist groups you can meet while in said foreign countries.

6. Months and even years will pass in this fashion, while you essentially get the FBI to pay for everything you do. (Incidentally, be sure your lawyer negotiates your expense account well in advance, or you may be forced -- as the informant was in the Buffalo terrorist case -- to protest your inadequate remuneration by setting yourself on fire in front of the White House.)

7. At a certain point, something will go wrong. You may have trouble recruiting other people to collaborate with your very own terrorist, who is, as you yourself know, just an ordinary guy in a really bad mood. Or, alternatively, the terrorist cell you have carefully cobbled together may malfunction and fail to move forward -- probably as a result of sheer incompetence or of simply not having been genuinely serious about the acts of terrorism you were urging it to commit. At this point, you may worry that the FBI is going to realize that there isn't much of a terrorist plot going on here at all, just a case of entrapment. Do not despair: the FBI is way ahead of you. The FBI knows perfectly well what's going on. The FBI has as much at stake as you do. So before it can be obvious to the world that there's no case, the FBI will arrest your very own terrorist, hold a press conference and announce that a huge terrorist plot has been foiled. It will of course be forced to admit that this plot did not proceed beyond the pre-planning stage, that no actual weapons or money were involved, and that the plot itself was "not technically feasible," but that will not stop the story from becoming a front-page episode all over America and, within hours, boilerplate for all the Republican politicians who believe that you need to arrest a "homegrown" terrorist now and then to justify the continuing war in Iraq. Everyone will be happy, except for the schmuck you shmikeled into becoming a terrorist, and no one really cares about him anyway.

So congratulations. You have foiled a terrorist plot. Way to go.
 
#4
Biped said:
The fact of the matter is that these bods planned a strike on US interests, on US soil, no matter how big or small. Good drills for catching them, irrespective of the hype.
Biped, it wasn't ever a real plot. It was, like so many others an entrapement job. And like so many before it will no doubt not result in any convictions of the defendents on the original charge. These 'terror plots' are needed on a regular basis in order to try and shore up diminishing support for an unpopular war. The 'plots' are as dishonest as the war itself.
Unless of course you like the cut of this fellows jib.

Arkansas GOP head:
We need more 'attacks on American soil' so people appreciate Bush
Josh Catone
Published: Sunday June 3, 2007

In his first interview as the chairman of the Arkansas Republican Party, Dennis Milligan told a reporter that America needs to be attacked by terrorists so that people will appreciate the work that President Bush has done to protect the country.

"At the end of the day, I believe fully the president is doing the right thing, and I think all we need is some attacks on American soil like we had on [Sept. 11, 2001]," Milligan said to the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, "and the naysayers will come around very quickly to appreciate not only the commitment for President Bush, but the sacrifice that has been made by men and women to protect this country."

Milligan, who was elected as the new chair of the Arkansas Republican Party just two weeks ago, also told the newspaper that he is "150 percent" behind Bush in the war in Iraq.

In his acceptance speech on May 19th, Milligan told his fellow Republicans that it was "time for a rediscovery of our values and our common sense."

The owner of a water treatment company, Milligan was a relative unknown in Arkansas politics until being elected the party chairman. He had previously served as the party's treasurer and the Saline County Republican chair.
 
#5
goodkurtz said:
Biped said:
The fact of the matter is that these bods planned a strike on US interests, on US soil, no matter how big or small. Good drills for catching them, irrespective of the hype.
Biped, it wasn't ever a real plot. It was, like so many others an entrapement job. And like so many before it will no doubt not result in any convictions of the defendents on the original charge. These 'terror plots' are needed on a regular basis in order to try and shore up diminishing support for an unpopular war. The 'plots' are as dishonest as the war itself.
Unless of course you like the cut of this fellows jib.

Arkansas GOP head:
We need more 'attacks on American soil' so people appreciate Bush
Josh Catone
Published: Sunday June 3, 2007

In his first interview as the chairman of the Arkansas Republican Party, Dennis Milligan told a reporter that America needs to be attacked by terrorists so that people will appreciate the work that President Bush has done to protect the country.

"At the end of the day, I believe fully the president is doing the right thing, and I think all we need is some attacks on American soil like we had on [Sept. 11, 2001]," Milligan said to the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, "and the naysayers will come around very quickly to appreciate not only the commitment for President Bush, but the sacrifice that has been made by men and women to protect this country."

Milligan, who was elected as the new chair of the Arkansas Republican Party just two weeks ago, also told the newspaper that he is "150 percent" behind Bush in the war in Iraq.

In his acceptance speech on May 19th, Milligan told his fellow Republicans that it was "time for a rediscovery of our values and our common sense."

The owner of a water treatment company, Milligan was a relative unknown in Arkansas politics until being elected the party chairman. He had previously served as the party's treasurer and the Saline County Republican chair.

Surely a terrorist attack would demonstrate how badly Bush has cocked up?
 
#6
overpromoted said:
Surely a terrorist attack would demonstrate how badly Bush has cocked up?
If only that was true, bush needs the war on terror to ensure that the voices of 'danger everywhere' distract from his appaling record thus far in steering the american econemy out of 'danger'!
 
#8
even if the entire fuel farm went up still would'nt be a 9/11 style attack they build them at a distance and have berms and things almighty bang clounds of smoke tough shit if your working there possibly. much dollar damage
few deaths nobody killed at hemel bit like the flooding the tube bomb plot.
short of filling a tube train with a shaped charge not going to work.
even london transports finest would eventually notice 100s of jihadist's manhandling tones of explosives and det cord into one tube carrage :twisted:
 
#9
fadingfirkin said:
Would not of caused an explosion well what happened at bloody Hemel Hempstead 18 months ago tell the residents there
Am sorry but I am more inclined to believe the airport 'fuel experts' than any of the lying spin-meisters of the Bush administration who have a vested interest in stoking the terrorist flames after all....

Further - am pretty certain that the set-up at Hemel Hempsted does not match that at the airport and so any attempt at a direct comparison is doomed to inaccuracy from the outset. And although there was a blast at H.H (where the fuel did have more room to mix with the air and have oxygen present), mostly it was a large long-burning fire - no massive desolation and thousands of casualties.
 
#10
overpromoted wrote and in so doing proved how very true his name is :D :

Surely a terrorist attack would demonstrate how badly Bush has cocked up?
Seriously though, I don't think it would show that. The police in Britain worked flat out during the I.R.A. campaigns but no one seriously blamed them when a bombing happened. Its extraordinarily difficult to stop all terrorist attacks.
In fact bearing in mind the huge size of America it's very odd that there hasn't been any follow up attacks since 9/11.

Amongst a lot of people in America there is now a growing suspicion of this 'War on Terror' malarky. In fact it is increasingly seen as just that.
People are beginning to look with curling lips and a jaundiced eye at reports of 'terror plots' that don't even get to a credible planning stage being discovered. They are beginning to withhold judgement as to whether there is anything real there.
 
#12
overpromoted said:
goodkurtz said:
Biped said:
The fact of the matter is that these bods planned a strike on US interests, on US soil, no matter how big or small. Good drills for catching them, irrespective of the hype.
Biped, it wasn't ever a real plot. It was, like so many others an entrapement job. And like so many before it will no doubt not result in any convictions of the defendents on the original charge. These 'terror plots' are needed on a regular basis in order to try and shore up diminishing support for an unpopular war. The 'plots' are as dishonest as the war itself.
Unless of course you like the cut of this fellows jib.

Arkansas GOP head:
We need more 'attacks on American soil' so people appreciate Bush
Josh Catone
Published: Sunday June 3, 2007

In his first interview as the chairman of the Arkansas Republican Party, Dennis Milligan told a reporter that America needs to be attacked by terrorists so that people will appreciate the work that President Bush has done to protect the country.

"At the end of the day, I believe fully the president is doing the right thing, and I think all we need is some attacks on American soil like we had on [Sept. 11, 2001]," Milligan said to the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, "and the naysayers will come around very quickly to appreciate not only the commitment for President Bush, but the sacrifice that has been made by men and women to protect this country."

Milligan, who was elected as the new chair of the Arkansas Republican Party just two weeks ago, also told the newspaper that he is "150 percent" behind Bush in the war in Iraq.

In his acceptance speech on May 19th, Milligan told his fellow Republicans that it was "time for a rediscovery of our values and our common sense."

The owner of a water treatment company, Milligan was a relative unknown in Arkansas politics until being elected the party chairman. He had previously served as the party's treasurer and the Saline County Republican chair.

Surely a terrorist attack would demonstrate how badly Bush has cocked up?
You could argue that it should have done the first time. :wink:
 
#13
Lets just put one or two two's together and see whether they make four or whether they make five.

On the one hand you have this low grade Repub. arrse clown saying this:
chairman of the Arkansas Republican Party, Dennis Milligan told a reporter that America needs to be attacked by terrorists so that people will appreciate the work that President Bush has done to protect the country.[/quote]

And further up the termite mound where the Masters live you have them saying this:
"We are History's actors, We are an Empire now and when we act we create new realities."

Is it just me who thinks there might just possibly be an occasion where these 'History Actors' unhinged as they are from the 'Reality Based Community' might find it useful to play to their base and arrange that very thing?

Naw! Can't be, I've must have just been watching the Sopranos too much and have mistaken the Patriot Act and the Department of Homeland Security for a protection racket. Silly me.
 
#14
I am pretty cynical about all of these 'plots'. Information is so widely available these days that any group of disgruntled muslims (or members of society) could put togther a perfectly feasible looking plot from their living rooms. We have a plethora of quite easy targets here in the UK and it doesn't take much brain to point them out. Down here in the South East I am amazed that nobody has detonated a truck full of fertilizer in the Dartford Tunnel yet. In such an overpopulated nation, the targets are endless.

In the UK our porous borders allow many to go back to their homelands for futher training if they want it. From what we hear about the quality of this training they would be better off buying any one of the 'SAS' training handbooks from WH Smiths and popping out to the countryside for a bit of practice.

Keyword-searching email traffic and monitoring websites is only going to throw up some of the traffic and there will be literally thousands of disenfranchised hot headed young muslims who getting excited and 'plan' major atrocities.

Personally I think the septics are grasping at straws and have to be seen to be doing something. I confess that my attitude is coloured by exposure to government that is media based and spin orientated so I don't believe a word the oily little gutter-maggots say anyway.
 
#15
goodkurtz said:
fadingfirkin said:
Would not of caused an explosion well what happened at bloody Hemel Hempstead 18 months ago tell the residents there
Refresh my memory. What was in those tanks, wasn't it petrol?

Here

Petrol vapour caused initial explosion; fire spread to other natures, ISTR.
 
#16
I thought HH wasn't am attack but an fuel leak that lead to an internal explosion and a huge fire. It blew out, not in, right?

The fact that there has been no attacks on mainland USA is porberbly being put down to hard work by all concerned, but yes they do need to been seen catching poeple trying, or it all just looks a bit silly.
 
#17
Not to be one to fly in the face of everyone else but let me get this straight. You are all (mostly) saying there is no terrorist threat to the US so they should all stand down?
 
#18
bobath said:
I thought HH wasn't am attack but an fuel leak that lead to an internal explosion and a huge fire. It blew out, not in, right?

The fact that there has been no attacks on mainland USA is porberbly being put down to hard work by all concerned, but yes they do need to been seen catching poeple trying, or it all just looks a bit silly.
Absolutely bobath, which is why the Department of Homeland Security is in constant need of additional funds from central government in order to carry through their on going entrapment of useful patsy program and so meet current quarterly production targets.

P.S. quick word to the wise. Did you notice that the rabid loon who wishes for more terrorist attacks on America in order to rub home to Americans how much Bush is doing to protect Americans from, erh, terrorist attacks on America, actually owns a water treatment company!

One for the Dr Strangelove fans there. Such is the genetic evolution of the species 'rabid loon' they now actually want to find the enemy in the water supply.
 
#19
Sounds like this plot was on the same reality level as the Blue Peter do it your self liquid bombs last year.

Not one to wear the tinfoil hat too often but that one has been proven to be a bag of balls IMO.
 
#20
EX_REME said:
Not to be one to fly in the face of everyone else but let me get this straight. You are all (mostly) saying there is no terrorist threat to the US so they should all stand down?
That's about the sum of it old man. Look at the facts. Since 9/11 there has been no Islamic terrorist attack on America. Not one - that's incredible or highly suspicious. They wouldn't even need to enter the country themselves. They could have recruited white American sympathisers to do any job for them. And yet they haven't. Why not?

One can only draw the conclusion that any threat that may exist is much smaller than we have been lead to believe. And that after invading both Afghanistan and Iraq!

One would have thought they would have done something - but no, not a peep.
So one is then lead to think is the American government just over reacting as a precaution or are they deliberately fostering a terrorist threat for their own ends? And the only way to assess that is by trying to evaluate the honesty, probity and honour of the current administration. And look at their history of total dishonesty and what do you reckon?

All I would say about the ruling neo con cabal is - Cut them, do they not lie?
 

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