Terror Attacks in Europe in 2019

There is a wider point here (and sorry for the thread drift): if one accepts the current meta that the NSDAP did no good, then one cannot explain the appeal of the party to contemporary Germans. That casts the 1933-45 period as 'inexplicable' when it can be explained.
The RAD, DAF, KdF were popular with many Germans. AH and the NSDAP had some politically and practically successful domestic policies.
It is explicable. My English surely isn't good enough but I'll try to bore you to death nevertheless. Germany after the Great War had all the features of a dictatorship in the making, civil war-like conditions, instable governments, political extremists, very high unemployment, hunger, poverty, myths about why the war was lost and a form of government most people hated or were indifferent to. That paired with the social dislocations created by the Depression, social unrest ant the permanent fighting between political extremists made for an explosive mix. Ideal conditions for the Nazis to gain a mass base in those voter layers that were aggrieved. After the first successes for the NSDAP it wasn't a far cry to get into power in Berlin.
Then they did what every half self-respecting dictatorship did and does. They promised order, employment, food, to repeal the Versailles treaty and the restitution of lost territories like the Rhineland. They unified the people against an monstrous enemy, the jewish world conspiracy and those that didn't want to be unified were brought into KZ's. Their agitprop was nearly flawless and overwhelming. Look at the Reichsparteitage they did, they caught the people like the pied piper.
It worked then and it works today.

Milgram with his experiment and Ron Jones with his Third Wave proved that you can indoctrinate normal and decent people extremely fast and that most of them are happy with it.
 
I can accept that the motivation was wrong, but the methods and techniques were beneficial to some members of society. There is no reason not to extend these to the rest of modern Germany other than the fact that "Nazi is bad!"
I have migrated to the former DDR and am quite happy here. The attitude is a bit old fashioned and traditional, but I like that and find that it is missing in the UK and amongst the Wessies. They are a bit odd (suspicious of newcomers) but genuinely care for their local communities and are relatively proud of being Germans. They seem to have accepted me, but still throw a watchful eye over me.
I find it rather sad that you are ashamed of your country. You have no reason to be.
Am I ashamed of my country? No. I am ashamed of what the Nazis did and I am clearly ashamed of what our current government and what political parties like the AfD do. My point is that Benefits for some members or even the greatest part of society don't justify terror, mass murder or genocide.
The Nazis destroyed my country, murdered Millions of my compatriots directly and indirectly. Every german civilian, every german soldier that was killed in WW2 was caused by the Nazis.
As a patriot who loves his country I only can say: Never ever again!

And when push comes to shove your east german neighbours will remember very fast that you're the Ausländer and that there is unfished business for some "crimes" like Dresden. Don't kid yourself about that.
 

WALT

War Hero
Am I ashamed of my country? No. I am ashamed of what the Nazis did and I am clearly ashamed of what our current government and what political parties like the AfD do.
I'm confused. The current government (Merkel et al.) and the AfD are fairly widely opposed. How can you be ashamed of both?

My point is that Benefits for some members or even the greatest part of society don't justify terror, mass murder or genocide.
Quite. My point is that it is possible to have some of the benefits without the terror, mass murder or genocide however this isn't allowed because the Nazis had the idea previously.


The Nazis destroyed my country, murdered Millions of my compatriots directly and indirectly. Every german civilian, every german soldier that was killed in WW2 was caused by the Nazis.
As a patriot who loves his country I only can say: Never ever again!
Fair enough.

And when push comes to shove your east german neighbours will remember very fast that you're the Ausländer and that there is unfished business for some "crimes" like Dresden. Don't kid yourself about that.
Luckily for me, Angela Merkel has just pushed me about 1.5 millions places down the queue for retribution.
 
It is explicable. My English surely isn't good enough but I'll try to bore you to death nevertheless. Germany after the Great War had all the features of a dictatorship in the making, civil war-like conditions, instable governments, political extremists, very high unemployment, hunger, poverty, myths about why the war was lost and a form of government most people hated or were indifferent to. That paired with the social dislocations created by the Depression, social unrest ant the permanent fighting between political extremists made for an explosive mix. Ideal conditions for the Nazis to gain a mass base in those voter layers that were aggrieved. After the first successes for the NSDAP it wasn't a far cry to get into power in Berlin.
Then they did what every half self-respecting dictatorship did and does. They promised order, employment, food, to repeal the Versailles treaty and the restitution of lost territories like the Rhineland. They unified the people against an monstrous enemy, the jewish world conspiracy and those that didn't want to be unified were brought into KZ's. Their agitprop was nearly flawless and overwhelming. Look at the Reichsparteitage they did, they caught the people like the pied piper.
It worked then and it works today.

Milgram with his experiment and Ron Jones with his Third Wave proved that you can indoctrinate normal and decent people extremely fast and that most of them are happy with it.
The danger is these conditions could occur again, in a less severe form in the UK or other European countries in the coming decade. The extremism of our own National Socialist Labour Party is an example of this danger. This party has quite a few hard-line Marxists and Stalinists influencing it at this time.
 
It is explicable. My English surely isn't good enough but I'll try to bore you to death nevertheless. Germany after the Great War had all the features of a dictatorship in the making, civil war-like conditions, instable governments, political extremists, very high unemployment, hunger, poverty, myths about why the war was lost and a form of government most people hated or were indifferent to. That paired with the social dislocations created by the Depression, social unrest ant the permanent fighting between political extremists made for an explosive mix. Ideal conditions for the Nazis to gain a mass base in those voter layers that were aggrieved. After the first successes for the NSDAP it wasn't a far cry to get into power in Berlin.
Then they did what every half self-respecting dictatorship did and does. They promised order, employment, food, to repeal the Versailles treaty and the restitution of lost territories like the Rhineland. They unified the people against an monstrous enemy, the jewish world conspiracy and those that didn't want to be unified were brought into KZ's. Their agitprop was nearly flawless and overwhelming. Look at the Reichsparteitage they did, they caught the people like the pied piper.
It worked then and it works today.

Milgram with his experiment and Ron Jones with his Third Wave proved that you can indoctrinate normal and decent people extremely fast and that most of them are happy with it.
Those are good arguments. The only thing I would offer by way of reply is that, unlike Soviet Russia, popular opinion had some effect in Germany in 1933-45. A party programme which consisted of just propaganda therefore would have failed, so AH sought to deliver - not just promise - jobs, food, national self - respect, etc. One can condemn the effect on Germany and Europe, etc of Nazi Germany. That does not mean that one has to find fault in everything the NSDAP did. This is a live debate as you will be aware as there are historians whose self-imposed guidelines when talking about the Nazi period are to deny AH credit for anything. An example: the Reich Hunting Law of 1934 banned the training of animals to hunt game or vermin - that is, hunting with hounds. Hunting was banned out of season too. Hunting with a rifle was licensed and access to licenses was stringently controlled. It is hard to find fault in those laws (unless one is a proponent of hunting with hounds, for example). One can contrast the care shown towards animals to the disregard shown by AH towards some humans. That does not mean that the hunting-related laws themselves are bad. Germany's present animal welfare rules are based upon those laws.
Accepting that the NSDAP had effective animal welfare rules in no way offsets the great harm caused by AH.
 
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37ucv67i

War Hero
An example: the Reich Hunting Law of 1934 banned the training of animals to hunt game or vermin - that is, hunting with hounds. Hunting was banned out of season too. Hunting with a rifle was licensed and access to licenses was stringently controlled. It is hard to find fault in those laws (unless one is a proponent of hunting with hounds, for example). One can contrast the care shown towards animals to the disregard shown by AH towards some humans. That does not mean that the hunting-related laws themselves are bad. Germany's present animal welfare rules are based upon those laws.
Accepting that the NSDAP had effective animal welfare rules in no way offsets the great harm caused by AH.
I'm afraid this 1934 law is, except for its blood and soil preamble, virtually identical with an ordinance drafted in 1929 by Prussian SPD prime minister Otto Müller.
 

Joker62

ADC
Book Reviewer
The DAF's and KdF's purposes were indoctrination, cooptation and surveillance of the workers. And paired with bread and circuses it worked. I give you that it was to build the so called Volksgemeinschaft but only to isolate and disenfranchise and later kill jews, socialists, homosexuals, the mental ill and other "Untermenschen". Same is with the RAD. Everything the Nazis did was to indoctrinate us little Aryans to be good Killers of Non-Aryans.
And the KdF-Wagen was a scam also, they betrayed millions with the promise of a relatively cheap, 990 Reichsmark, car. I still somewhere have an account-book from my grandfahter where hey saved 5 Reichsmark a week for the car.
Reminds of a joke about Russia - A bloke wanders into the car showroom to buy a car, speaks to the car dealer who say that he can arrange delivery in a certain day 10 years into the future, buyer asks if it's going to be in the morning or afternoon, dealer asks why, it's in 10 years time, it doesn't matter, buyers then says I need to know which as I have the plumber coming in the morning.
 
Are you farming in South Wales? If so, I may know your wife's reasons.
No, we farm in Wiltshire. I fancy a move to Bavaria, maybe up a mountain, miles away from the RPA, surrounded by Warsteiner and those birds from Oktoberfest with their massive jugs (of ale). Herself says shes happy here, and won't go back to a country where reading out a shopping list in the native tongue sounds like an order to shoot 10 villagers for blowing up the railway.
 

Joker62

ADC
Book Reviewer
No, we farm in Wiltshire. I fancy a move to Bavaria, maybe up a mountain, miles away from the RPA, surrounded by Warsteiner and those birds from Oktoberfest with their massive jugs (of ale). Herself says shes happy here, and won't go back to a country where reading out a shopping list in the native tongue sounds like an order to shoot 10 villagers for blowing up the railway.
She hasn't got a local accent then?
 

anglo

LE
Reminds of a joke about Russia - A bloke wanders into the car showroom to buy a car, speaks to the car dealer who say that he can arrange delivery in a certain day 10 years into the future, buyer asks if it's going to be in the morning or afternoon, dealer asks why, it's in 10 years time, it doesn't matter, buyers then says I need to know which as I have the plumber coming in the morning.
Ronald Reagan walt
 
No, we farm in Wiltshire. I fancy a move to Bavaria, maybe up a mountain, miles away from the RPA, surrounded by Warsteiner and those birds from Oktoberfest with their massive jugs (of ale). Herself says shes happy here, and won't go back to a country where reading out a shopping list in the native tongue sounds like an order to shoot 10 villagers for blowing up the railway.
To my uneducated eye Bavaria seems like a paradise for farmers - both dairy and arable.
 
I'm surprised that the attack yesterday on a synagogue in Halle an der Saale has not been mentioned. Basically a lone individual of extreme right wing persuasion attempted an attack on the synagogue on the day of Yom Kippur. Fortunately those inside locked and bolted the door PDFQ, but then had to wait for hours for the GCP to rescue them. Meanwhile the attacker shot and killed two other random victums using a home made weapon. He used a helmet mounted camera to film everything and live stream it to an internet website frequented by neo-nazis.
He was eventually arrested by the GCP and has been charged with murder and attempted murder. This thing is being taken very seriously and the Bundesanwalt (German Federal Prosecutor) has taken over. This normally only happens for the most serious offences, in this case hate motivated terrorism against the Jews.
Frank Walter Steinmeier the Bundespräsident has visited Halle an der Saale and strongly condemned the attack.
Sorry no links available yet.

AL1 . In German only:
 
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It's been mentioned a lot on this thread, it didn't look like your usual terrorist attack on the continent so there's been a lot of chatter on social media before the police released details about what their motives could have been

It's just fortunate he wasn't more capable, that alone must be encouraging
 
Its what Merkel asked for - and received, by the grace of God.
It's what she knew would happen - and so it has transpired, by the grace of God. Hope her mental state doesnt deteriorate too quickly - I'd hate her to be deprived of the pleasure of seeing her policies come to fruition.
My bold … surely to be in context it should be "Inshallah" !
 
Defense leagues are one step away from organised crime. It's better to co-operate with the authorities rather than act on your own.


My bold … what if those "authorities" wilfully ignore/excuse criminal/unacceptable actions by certain elements in society because it suits the political agenda. As is happening in much of western Europe at the moment, this will create more XRW sentiment as the average man in the street feels vulnerable to criminal actions by, in the main, certain incomers!
 

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