Tempest Manned Unmanned Fighter Concept

#42
In the future design world it's obvious people with more brain power than us have decided a pilot can fly a plane whether on board or not, more likely not. Decisions will in that case still be made by a human and executed by machine.

Nothing changes except the pilot will remain in his/her top class hotel with no fear of being shot down.
They’ll still wear grow bags though.

A Canadian I work d with told me that their artillery units used to operate all their UAVs, then the Air Force decided that pilots had to do it. Accident rates went through the roof.
 
#44
That function needed turning on.

I think there’s a rather in depth ethics debate about having an aircraft that takes off by itself and decides who and what to kill on the ground.

You only have to look at the debate in the media about the use of drones. Apparently it’s only ok to blow somebody up if you put somebody in harms way.

Automation does work, but when it comes to killing people get very upset when there’s nobody in the loop. They also get equally upset when somebody is in the loop and mistakes get made.

We’v seem lots and lots of talk over the years of new technology being used.

Manned fighters were to be replaced. Guns weren’t needed only missiles. High performance planes would be based by long wndurwnace planes carrying lots and lots of missiles. Swarm robots etc etc.

I’ve seen to many UAVs crash due to yet to be overcome delays in transmitting controls and lots and lots of people blown up needlessly because the guy flying it was stateside thinking he/she was playing a computer game.

Politicians don’t like to get their own people put in harms way. The only way to do that is to talk and discuss and not fight. I suspect that if we were more willing to accept casualty’s we’ll be a little more reluctant to use force.

Semantics.

What’s the difference between a pilot following directions and a cue to shoot from an AWACS on the end of a datalink and a drone fighter doing likewise?
 
#45
Semantics.

What’s the difference between a pilot following directions and a cue to shoot from an AWACS on the end of a datalink and a drone fighter doing likewise?
As I say, there’s an ethics issue there that policy makers get wet knickers over.

Sadly, human nature tends to be a little less rigid in their ROE when they to aren’t in the firing line.

Agreed WW3 type scenario where anything that flies is either friendly or enemy makes things different, but we’ve seen a Tornado blown out of the sky by a patriot as well as civilian aircraft taken out.

They’ll be human factors involved in that, but don’t expect fully autonomous killing coming anytime soon unless it’s an immediate threat and the human is taken out of the loop to speed up your chances of survival (sea wolf, phalanx, goalkeeper etc.)
 
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#46
As I say, there’s an ethics issue there that policy makers get wet knickers over.

Sadly, human natur me is to be a little less rigid in their ROE when they to aren’t in the firing line.

Agreed WW3 type scenario where anything that flies is either friendly or enemy makes things different, but we’ve seen a Tornado blown out of the sky by a patriot as well as civilian aircraft taken out.

They’ll be human factors involved in that, but don’t expect fully autonomous killing coming anytime soon unless it’s an immediate threat and the human is taken out of the loop to speed up your chances of survival (sea wolf, phalanx, goalkeeper etc.)

Back in the Middle Ages, crossbows were considered barbaric as they killed at distance avd removed the manliness and skill of hard to hard combat
And there were were 400 years later with belt fed machine guns on tripods moving backwards and forwards mechanically mowing down hundred of men in a minute..

As Hiram Maxin was told, make a better way of killing and they'll buy it.
Bet you inside a decade or so, people will look back and wonder why on Earth they risked pilots attacking high value targets and SAM sites.
 
#47
Back in the Middle Ages, crossbows were considered barbaric as they killed at distance avd removed the manliness and skill of hard to hard combat
And there were were 400 years later with belt fed machine guns on tripods moving backwards and forwards mechanically mowing down hundred of men in a minute..

As Hiram Maxin was told, make a better way of killing and they'll buy it.
Bet you inside a decade or so, people will look back and wonder why on Earth they risked pilots attacking high value targets and SAM sites.
Somebody I worked with who was also studying psychology went into a very philosophical debate how society needs to maintain the ability to kill on demand. Otherwise that society will be unable to defend itself at a later date.

There are of course modifications to that. The Americans were/May have looking at developing sites for rifles that blurred out the human shape to make killing easier.

However, with new technology, it still comes down to boots on the ground
 
#48
Somebody I worked with who was also studying psychology went into a very philosophical debate how society needs to maintain the ability to kill on demand. Otherwise that society will be unable to defend itself at a later date.

There are of course modifications to that. The Americans were/May have looking at developing sites for rifles that blurred out the human shape to make killing easier.

However, with new technology, it still comes down to boots on the ground

Directed energy weapons are just about here. When weapons can kill at the speed of light, humans operate too slowly
 

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#50
When the supporters of autonomous drones do the old mad cow test and take a bite themselves, I remain sceptical.

Test:-
Go on a lovely two week holiday to Ibiza aboard an Airbus with no pilot and just the computer running the flight and return on the same aircraft. Obviously the aircraft will not have any special maintenance between flights, apart from the normal maintenance and be required to fly all over Europe for two weeks in the meantime and maybe engines and such are 20 year old to make sure the test is not factory clean.
 
#51
...If we were then to apply that to 6th gen, it seems that perhaps full autonomy is not really achievable in a 6th gen timeline (despite the claims since 4th gen it will be the ‘last’ manned vehicle..ha) and perhaps the best we can expect of 6th gen is RPAS from a nearby asset or some kind?...
Every single 6th Gen concept is either manned or optionally manned. The RAF CAS recently addressed this issue.

...Has anyone defined 6th Generation yet?...
No. However, the same is true of 5th Gen.

Why have an aircraft that can be manned or unmanned?...
For simple missions and high risk ops (as long as they too are relatively simple), RPAS may be fine assuming you have authority to operate them in this mode, have the SATCOM coverage, bandwidth and frequencies required.

In any other case, or where you want to operate somewhere quickly, you’ll need manned. This is why the UK and US have RPAS and manned types (eg MC-12W or Shadow) doing what are in some respects overlapping ISR roles. A King Air type platform can be deployed anywhere in the world in days; it takes weeks or even months to deploy and establish the infrastructure required for RPAS.

...Surely, in the unmanned configuration it is carrying a shedload of weight that it doesn't need, or they take out the manned infrastructure (bang seat, controls, instruments, cup-holders ... ) and perhaps put in extra instrumentation, etc...
Likewise, an unmanned platform needs a shedload of heavy sensors, black boxes and associated cooling/wiring/power generation etc for remote or AI operation. Swings and roundabouts.

Understood, but is this to be a common manned/unmanned airframe, with mission-dependent conversion of the airframe, or will there be two distinct variants?
I would imagine 2 distinct variants. However, this is VERY early days indeed and the final product will inevitably look very different. This is what the Typhoon started off as (then named the BAe Agile Combat Aircraft) in around 1981...

They’ll still wear grow bags though.

A Canadian I work d with told me that their artillery units used to operate all their UAVs, then the Air Force decided that pilots had to do it. Accident rates went through the roof.
Not entirely true; the RCAF started operating different classes of UAV, notably the particularly pants SAGEM Sperwer, which had been rejected by Denmark, in Afghanistan, where its performance was even more pants and it made Watchkeeper look like a success story.

Once the RCAF were allowed to swap to Heron, accident rates predictably stabilised at more acceptable rates.

...Sadly, human nature tends to be a little less rigid in their ROE when they to aren’t in the firing line...
I would entirely disagree...and so would every single Reaper guy I know who’s previously flown GR9, GR4 etc. Indeed, there are many cases where remote ops have saved lives.

There is NOTHING that Reaper guys find more insulting than the ‘it’s just a game...they’re not mentally ‘there’’ argument.

...They’ll be human factors involved in that, but don’t expect fully autonomous killing coming anytime soon unless it’s an immediate threat and the human is taken out of the loop to speed up your chances of survival (sea wolf, phalanx, goalkeeper etc.)
Agreed.

Regards,
MM
 
#53
When the supporters of autonomous drones do the old mad cow test and take a bite themselves, I remain sceptical.

Test:-
Go on a lovely two week holiday to Ibiza aboard an Airbus with no pilot and just the computer running the flight and return on the same aircraft. Obviously the aircraft will not have any special maintenance between flights, apart from the normal maintenance and be required to fly all over Europe for two weeks in the meantime and maybe engines and such are 20 year old to make sure the test is not factory clean.

90% of airliner crashes are human error - unmanned would be much safer!
A drone won’t shout at the co pilot, shit up, I know what I’m doing as he CFITs into a mountain.
 

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#54
90% of airliner crashes are human error - unmanned would be much safer!
A drone won’t shout at the co pilot, shit up, I know what I’m doing as he CFITs into a mountain.
I can't argue with that view as you are correct.

My only quibble would be computers have caused accidents by giving pilots false readings, contradictory data and the pilot getting the blame. But, it would be decidedly windy feeling to fly in aircraft controlled by a computer.

I work with computers every day and you can guarantee a new build will fail. That is fine for a website, but not for an aircraft carrying 300 passengers. Or for an RAF Drone flying over the UK on a training op.
 
#55

An example if why the RAF are driving the Tempest design as a national design this time - no more European compromises.

The British were well aware of the big advantages of twin tails, see AST 396,

1531813854040.jpeg


much better control at high AOA, but a combination of Germans not stumping up the money they promised, and the French wanting to build what they were familiar with, (despite the space age looks, Mirages were very pedestrian manufacturing technology), we ended up using a modified Tornado fin.
 
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#56
I can't argue with that view as you are correct.

My only quibble would be computers have caused accidents by giving pilots false readings, contradictory data and the pilot getting the blame. But, it would be decidedly windy feeling to fly in aircraft controlled by a computer.

I work with computers every day and you can guarantee a new build will fail. That is fine for a website, but not for an aircraft carrying 300 passengers. Or for an RAF Drone flying over the UK on a training op.

DLR?
 

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#57
Its on the ground, not 20k feet. But yea, its the future no matter how much I have the doubts and when the first significant incident happens and the inevitable cry of "something must be done", we will likely revisit the morals.

The worst thing about this is its inevitably. Usual weapons race, our enemies will likely be working on something similar and as such we have to have it as well... A piloted jet simply can't compete with a pilotless one for manoeuvrability, in avoiding missiles.
 
#58
An example if why the RAF are driving the Tempest design as a national design this time - no more European compromises.

The British were well aware of the big advantages of twin tails, see AST 396,

View attachment 342642

much better control at high AOA, but a combination of Germans not stumping up the money they promised, and the French wanting to build what they were familiar with, (despite the space age looks, Mirages were very pedestrian manufacturing technology), we ended up using a modified Tornado fin.
AOA?
 
#60
Its on the ground, not 20k feet. But yea, its the future no matter how much I have the doubts and when the first significant incident happens and the inevitable cry of "something must be done", we will likely revisit the morals.

The worst thing about this is its inevitably. Usual weapons race, our enemies will likely be working on something similar and as such we have to have it as well... A piloted jet simply can't compete with a pilotless one for manoeuvrability, in avoiding missiles.
How many aircraft get lost to missiles?

I’m saying that as is the aim to ditch SEAD and improve manoeuvrability or continue with SEAD and improve manoeuvrability.

That’s a genuine question as with all of the combat sorties flown over the decades, not many aircraft have been lost and those that have have predominantly been taken out by archaic AAA.

The improvement in PGM has allowed for greater stand off? Or we looking at technology overcoming stand off PGM?

Air warfare is not my strong point, but is the desire for unmanned aircraft being driven by a technological need to an ever changing environment or is it being driven by a political need to undertake missions where zero casualty’s are needed? If the later, do we run the risk of politicians more likely to use unmanned aircraft and show less constraint?
 
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