Tempest Manned Unmanned Fighter Concept

Post 505 mucker, but yes, initial investment is too low, but also recognised as a common problem in such projects at this stage.
Also worth asking if the assesment being pre Japan agreement is still valid.

Collaboration there will have in effect increased funding.
 

ThunderBox

On ROPS
On ROPs
.

it would be a brave man who flies a stealth aircraft into heavily defended airspace without having first identified the existing threats, mapped out the weaknesses in the air defence and sent up some for of jamming aircraft to assist or some form of distraction.

There are some interesting documents on GW1 out there, one called called the Gulf War Air Power Survey Volume 1, it hints against my understanding that EF-111 supported the F-117 ‘over Baghdad’ as I was in the same boat as you and believe they still used EW birds with Stealth.

P.14
P.153 (note the interchangeable Stealth with low observable)
P.232 is the kicker though
They demonstrated faith in new technology specifically, sending stealth aircraft against targets without suppression of enemy air defences
An interesting read, I was trying to find a single hint to a rumour the F-117 has a companion which is not the EF-111 but another ‘exotic’ platform as yet still classified.

Not a believer myself however, a credible source, a boomer on a USAF refueller, who knows, who knows?
 
There are some interesting documents on GW1 out there, one called called the Gulf War Air Power Survey Volume 1, it hints against my understanding that EF-111 supported the F-117 ‘over Baghdad’ as I was in the same boat as you and believe they still used EW birds with Stealth.

P.14
P.153 (note the interchangeable Stealth with low observable)
P.232 is the kicker though

An interesting read, I was trying to find a single hint to a rumour the F-117 has a companion which is not the EF-111 but another ‘exotic’ platform as yet still classified.

Not a believer myself however, a credible source, a boomer on a USAF refueller, who knows, who knows?
I did find this,


Then again I don’t know what the radar coverage was over Baghdad or what the impact of other Deception activities.

ironically, almost immediately after the F117s struck home there was a TLAM strike.
 

ThunderBox

On ROPS
On ROPs
I did find this,


Then again I don’t know what the radar coverage was over Baghdad or what the impact of other Deception activities.

ironically, almost immediately after the F117s struck home there was a TLAM strike.

I definitely read about how they planned to fly around the radars they know about, regardless of stealth, as you pointed out, it’s a variation of camouflage, you don’t wear a ghillie suit and walk through the jungle like Predator!
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Published by: Harry Adams Amy Wiltshire, FORCES NET, on 29 July 2021.

Tempest: Future Fighter Project Enters New £250m Phase.

It comes following an Infrastructure and Projects Authority (IPA) report stating the "successful delivery of the project is in doubt".


The Future Combat Air System is expected to combine a core aircraft with capabilities such as un-crewed aircraft and advanced data systems. The Ministry of Defence has signed a contract with British industry ‘Team Tempest’ partners.

The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has signed a £250m contract starting the next phase of developing Tempest - the UK's future sixth-generation fighter jet.

The contract, signed with BAE Systems, marks the formal start of the project's Concept and Assessment phase, which will see investment in the digital and physical infrastructure.

This will see Tempest built from a 'digital first' footing, allowing simulated design and testing.

The contract will also define and design the future combat air system, mature technologies across the system, invest in the workforce and enable major programme choices by 2024.

The Defence Secretary announced the contract at BAE Systems' site in Warton, Lancashire - the centre of development for the programme.

Ben Wallace said the contract marked "a momentous step in the next phase" of the Tempest programme.

He added it will boost the UK's "already world-leading air industry" and make sure "the UK remains at the top table when it comes to combat air".

The investment is part of over £2 billion of Government spending on Tempest across the next four years - as announced in the Defence Command Paper.

The programme is expected to combine a core aircraft with a number of capabilities, such as an uncrewed aircraft and advanced data systems, to form a next-generation mix designed to enter service from the mid-2030s.

Richard Berthon, UK Director of Future Combat Air, said the project is "hugely important" in making sure the UK and its allies have a "battle-winning edge for the future".

"Developing the system allows us to drive a revolution in digital development and harness the power of open systems architecture," he said.

However, in the Infrastructure and Projects Authority (IPA) annual report 2021, the project was given an 'amber/red' status.

This means the "successful delivery of the project is in doubt, with major risks or issues apparent in a number of key areas" and "urgent action" is required.

The report also said that whilst a review of the project's timeline to the next phase will not hinder the Concept and Assessment phase, it "significantly increases" the programme's risk in the next phase.

It also stated "further pressure through Annual Budgeting Cycle 21 on the 10-year profile increases the risk to Initial Operating Capability".

The programme to design a future combat air system is a major international effort, with the UK delivering the jet with international partners.

Last year, the UK, Italy and Sweden signed a Memorandum of Understanding to collaborate on the project, although the Government says it is "too early to say" where parts of the Tempest fighter jet will be built.

During his visit to Tokyo last week, Mr Wallace and Japanese Defence Minister Nobuo Kishi agreed to speed up discussions between the UK and Japan on developing sub-systems for Tempest.

1628076049728.png


[ Follow link for videos . . . ]

 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
Italians throwing some more money in the kitty

 
Nice!! Two fingers up at France and Germany.
One of which ironically has said it would prefer to work with the U.K. rather than Germany due to our expertise.

It’s going to be difficult for the EU to derail Tempest unless they apply political pressure on Italy to join future Joint Aircraft project. However Germany and France, historically haven’t done too well on joint procurement projects.
 

ThunderBox

On ROPS
On ROPs
One of which ironically has said it would prefer to work with the U.K. rather than Germany due to our expertise.

It’s going to be difficult for the EU to derail Tempest unless they apply political pressure on Italy to join future Joint Aircraft project. However Germany and France, historically haven’t done too well on joint procurement projects.

We would be stupid at this point to open it up to France and Germany, I don’t see them offering anything other than money and a headache.
 
We would be stupid at this point to open it up to France and Germany, I don’t see them offering anything other than money and a headache.
I was thinking more along the lines of Germany forcing Italy to join them under the auspices of a European defence project for a European military. Let’s not forget that France and Germany have a joint army unit and Macron has a hard on for a European Army

post brexit, the EUs main aim seems to be punishment of the U.K.
 

ThunderBox

On ROPS
On ROPs
I was thinking more along the lines of Germany forcing Italy to join them under the auspices of a European defence project for a European military. Let’s not forget that France and Germany have a joint army unit and Macron has a hard on for a European Army

post brexit, the EUs main aim seems to be punishment of the U.K.

I wondered, Marconi was a UK company, IIRC it became Selex and finmeccanica and leonardo...cant quite remember the corporate changes, but even though its Italian owned, the IP, if not owned by the UK Government, surely has some export controls?

Where I am going, is the Radar and Dass on Eurofighter, isnt Italian design or smarts, they were UK people building them, so would this mean that even if they partnered with France because of the EU, there are still capabilities we (the UK) could prevent them from sharing?? Perhaps also the technology transfer on the F-35 would prevent them playing stealthily with other countries?
 

ThunderBox

On ROPS
On ROPs
I was thinking more along the lines of Germany forcing Italy to join them under the auspices of a European defence project for a European military. Let’s not forget that France and Germany have a joint army unit and Macron has a hard on for a European Army

post brexit, the EUs main aim seems to be punishment of the U.K.
Yeah sorry I understood what you were saying, I was just thinking out loud on the whole EU bull****
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
There's a lot of anti-EU feeling in Italy at the moment, with plenty of well-founded speculation that it could be the next out. Trying to force a bounce into the Franco-German project on the basis of loyalty to The Great Project... would that really work, all considered?
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
An interesting read, I was trying to find a single hint to a rumour the F-117 has a companion which is not the EF-111 but another ‘exotic’ platform as yet still classified.

Not a believer myself however, a credible source, a boomer on a USAF refueller, who knows, who knows?
The TR-3 Black Manta has been hinted at by internet conspiracy theorists for years. That's even to the level that it was a 'pathfinder aircraft' for the F-117. Now, whether the F-117 needed a pathfinder is something I'll leave to debate. It's not infallible - see Yugoslavia - but if used properly may as well be.

Look up black triangles or bell-shaped wing forms if you're interested in more.

The thing about the TR-3 - like Aurora - is that rumours of it now date back across three decades. It's stretching credibility to think that the technology/programmes wouldn't at least have been admitted to by now. One of the reasons given for not attempting to recover or fully destroy the F-117 shot down by the Slavs is that the technology was already old and that we had already moved on; a TR-3 would also by now be rather old hat. As would Aurora...

The continuing reason given for a non-appearance in public view is that both the TR-3 and Aurora provide convenient masks for other, much deeper Black projects. But then if you read enough about this stuff there's all sorts. It stretches from the just-about credible to the out-and-out fanciful - and never forget the stir that the Black Hawk wreckage outside bin Laden's hiding place caused, even among the better-informed of the aviation press. There are rumours a-plenty of stealth transport aircraft, including some US SF types who've asserted that they've jumped from them.
 
I wondered, Marconi was a UK company, IIRC it became Selex and finmeccanica and leonardo...cant quite remember the corporate changes, but even though its Italian owned, the IP, if not owned by the UK Government, surely has some export controls?

Where I am going, is the Radar and Dass on Eurofighter, isnt Italian design or smarts, they were UK people building them, so would this mean that even if they partnered with France because of the EU, there are still capabilities we (the UK) could prevent them from sharing?? Perhaps also the technology transfer on the F-35 would prevent them playing stealthily with other countries?
It matters not a jot to them I expect.
France has the skill set to do it alone, or will at least have a crack at it to improve their knowledge base (they have a long history of trying to develop everything domestically and are very reluctant to buy anything foreign) Germany lacks expertise, but it’s industry leaders who back the German government will want a large slice of the cake. (Funny how everything the EU has pushed for during its COVID response benefits large German companies. Germany designed the Pfizer vaccine and its massive german pharmaceutical companies that are making the Pfizer vaccine on behalf of Pfizer. That massive price increase doesn’t just benefit the US treasury. )

in both cases they’ll cut their nose off to spite their face. Now Italy is fitter indebted to the EU they’ll do what they’re told.

the desire is for one EU state. one EU defence policy. One EU military under EU control and I strongly suspect limited EU defence contractors .

Airbus is taking a hammering in the commercial sector at the moment.
 

Slime

LE
The TR-3 Black Manta has been hinted at by internet conspiracy theorists for years. That's even to the level that it was a 'pathfinder aircraft' for the F-117. Now, whether the F-117 needed a pathfinder is something I'll leave to debate. It's not infallible - see Yugoslavia - but if used properly may as well be.

Look up black triangles or bell-shaped wing forms if you're interested in more.

The thing about the TR-3 - like Aurora - is that rumours of it now date back across three decades. It's stretching credibility to think that the technology/programmes wouldn't at least have been admitted to by now. One of the reasons given for not attempting to recover or fully destroy the F-117 shot down by the Slavs is that the technology was already old and that we had already moved on; a TR-3 would also by now be rather old hat. As would Aurora...

The continuing reason given for a non-appearance in public view is that both the TR-3 and Aurora provide convenient masks for other, much deeper Black projects. But then if you read enough about this stuff there's all sorts. It stretches from the just-about credible to the out-and-out fanciful - and never forget the stir that the Black Hawk wreckage outside bin Laden's hiding place caused, even among the better-informed of the aviation press. There are rumours a-plenty of stealth transport aircraft, including some US SF types who've asserted that they've jumped from them.

What amuses me about the aircraft you mention is that while conspiracy types haven’t seen detailed photos of it, they say it’s the TR3B, so even rely on being correct about knowing it’s a later model………..Without ever knowing if there was a TR3/TR3A :)
 

R0B

War Hero
What amuses me about the aircraft you mention is that while conspiracy types haven’t seen detailed photos of it, they say it’s the TR3B, so even rely on being correct about knowing it’s a later model………..Without ever knowing if there was a TR3/TR3A :)

The TR3B has an extra antenna in front of the warp drive. ;-)
 

Slime

LE
The TR3B has an extra antenna in front of the warp drive. ;-)

Are you sure?????

I heard it was the ‘retro’ version made by a British car manufacturer that the public have been fooled into thinking was closed down years ago :)
 

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