Tempest Manned Unmanned Fighter Concept

[fantassin]

The Dassault Rafale is so good, the French have to get paid by 1st world countries to buy them.

Fixed it for you

Greece and France ink $3 billion contract for Rafale fighter jets

Six of the second-hand aircraft will be delivered at a rate of one a month starting this July, with the six new aircraft delivered in spring 2022 and the last six used aircraft delivered in early 2023.

www.defensenews.com

 

[PhotEx]

Fixed it for you

Greece and France ink $3 billion contract for Rafale fighter jets

Six of the second-hand aircraft will be delivered at a rate of one a month starting this July, with the six new aircraft delivered in spring 2022 and the last six used aircraft delivered in early 2023.

www.defensenews.com

you are selling used ones to bankrupt places like Greece now?

plus de force dans aviation!

 

[fantassin]

you are selling used ones to bankrupt places like Greece now?

plus de force dans aviation!

Yes, just like the US do

USA ‘welcomes’ Greece’s interest in buying the F-35

The US Embassy in Greece has welcomed Athens' interest in buying the Lockheed Martin F-35 stealth fighter. The endorsement comes as tensions between NATO allies Greece and Turkey grow over a variety of issues, including conflicting claims over exclusive economic zones in the Eastern Mediterranean.

www.flightglobal.com

Etonnant , non ?

 

[PhotEx]

Yes, just like the US do

USA ‘welcomes’ Greece’s interest in buying the F-35

The US Embassy in Greece has welcomed Athens' interest in buying the Lockheed Martin F-35 stealth fighter. The endorsement comes as tensions between NATO allies Greece and Turkey grow over a variety of issues, including conflicting claims over exclusive economic zones in the Eastern Mediterranean.

www.flightglobal.com

Etonnant , non ?

All can dream of buying US-U.K. super fighters, but alas, some have to make do with used French special needs ones.

 

[ThunderBox]

you are selling used ones to bankrupt places like Greece now?

plus de force dans aviation!

Greece signed up for 90 EFA before the Olympics bankrupted them and they backed out.

 

[PhotEx]

Greece signed up for 90 EFA before the Olympics bankrupted them and they backed out.

The Greeks are always skint.

 

[fantassin]

All can dream of buying US-U.K. super fighters, but alas, some have to make do with used French special needs ones.

No, it's the way the Greeks have always gone, a mix of French and US planes

Mirage F-1 and F-4
Mirage 2000 and F-16
Rafale and ???

Returning customers are happy customers.

And BTW, 12 additional Rafale have been ordered to replace those taken from Armée de l'Air stocks to respond to Greece urgent request.

Dassault Aviation receives order for 12 Rafales for French Air and Space Force

Dassault Aviation receives order for 12 Rafales for French Air and Space Force Saint-Cloud, January 29th, 2021 - Eric Trappier, Chairman and CEO of...

www.globenewswire.com

 

[Slime]

Unfortunately that was 67 years ago.

Now it's more relevant to look at the F-35 and KC-46 to have an up to date idea of the "speed" of US aircraft design.

Ok, NGAD and B21.

NGAD has seen a flying test very quickly.......’France is best myth’

 

[Slime]

1) France can build FCAS on its own if needed

2) Rafale has 4 export customers and other orders are likely; as it is, the exports have already reached the level where the plane is a commercial success

3) Germany is not respecting it's side of the contract which was French lead on FCAS and German lead on MGCS

4) Ouragan, Mystère IV, Super Mystère B2, Mirage III, Mirage V, Mirage F-1, Mirage 2000, Rafale , all exported, all combat proven, with IVO of 400 air to air kills altogether, bluff and bluster....really ? Maybe you should ask the Turkish back seater of Turkish F-16 shot down by a Greek Mirage 2000 his opinion of the French made bluff....he was just returning from 2 years as military attaché to the UK...

Can you stop quoting aircraft built many decades ago, apparently they aren’t relevant.......according to you*
Did the Balzac slip from your mind as you typed the list?

On the other hand, why haven’t France gone it alone already with FCAS???

No one is surprised whatsoever that Germany is proving to be a troublesome parter. France have already had issues with Germany before in aircraft programmes and are already trying to bully Germany in respect of the fact Germany wanted a US aircraft for nuclear carriage interopanility.

Just let France go it alone.....job jobbed, and much less hassle.

*Just to point out the obvious....again.....The entire list of aircraft you are quoting, which goes back 70 years is still only have half the number of kills of the US F86 all by itself. You are simply pointing out again why France should perhaps buy from the USA again. In terms of timeline for the decades old list you dragged up the French only retired the Crusader fairly recently.

What you don’t seem to be saying is why France has gone to huge lengths to make FCAS take longer to build, be harder to develop, give fewer jobs to France and reduce the amount of R and D for France......all things which are bad for France.
Funny that

 

[fantassin]

Can you stop quoting aircraft built many decades ago, apparently they aren’t relevant.......according to you*
Did the Balzac slip from your mind as you typed the list?

On the other hand, why haven’t France gone it alone already with FCAS???

No one is surprised whatsoever that Germany is proving to be a troublesome parter. France have already had issues with Germany before in aircraft programmes and are already trying to bully Germany in respect of the fact Germany wanted a US aircraft for nuclear carriage interopanility.

Just let France go it alone.....job jobbed, and much less hassle.

*Just to point out the obvious....again.....The entire list of aircraft you are quoting, which goes back 70 years is still only have half the number of kills of the US F86 all by itself. You are simply pointing out again why France should perhaps buy from the USA again. In terms of timeline for the decades old list you dragged up the French only retired the Crusader fairly recently.

What you don’t seem to be saying is why France has gone to huge lengths to make FCAS take longer to build, be harder to develop, give fewer jobs to France and reduce the amount of R and D for France......all things which are bad for France.
Funny that

The Balzac was not admitted into the FAF or any other air force hence l did not mention it.

The decision to do joint program is purely political. Technicaly speaking, nothing warrants it

The Crusader were retired 22 years ago. Not "fairly recently"

Biying from the USA is always the last resort, when acquiring niche aircrafts. Why is it so difficult to understand that becoming a vassal state is not desirable ?

 

[ThunderBox]

The Balzac was not admitted into the FAF or any other air force hence l did not mention it.

The decision to do joint program is purely political. Technicaly speaking, nothing warrants it

The Crusader were retired 22 years ago. Not "fairly recently"

Biying from the USA is always the last resort, when acquiring niche aircrafts. Why is it so difficult to understand that becoming a vassal state is not desirable ?

Would you consider F-35 as being American? I think the U.K. probably did well getting involved in that from an IP perspective, you don’t have to buy OTS the Israeli’s seem to keep up with a competent Aircraft industry even if it is not building Airframes.

Rolls Royce have benefited even if they don’t build the engine. Martin Baker, BAES all keeping their hands in developing technology.

 

[fantassin]

Would you consider F-35 as being American? I think the U.K. probably did well getting involved in that from an IP perspective, you don’t have to buy OTS the Israeli’s seem to keep up with a competent Aircraft industry even if it is not building Airframes.

Rolls Royce have benefited even if they don’t build the engine. Martin Baker, BAES all keeping their hands in developing technology.

Considering the F-35 reports automatically its activities to the USA and the presence of "black boxes" that are restricted to the USA on this plane, yes, in spite of its multinational partners, the F-35 is a US plane.

I fully understand that nations that no longer have the ability to build their own planes consider it natural to buy from the USA.

On the other hand, it shouldn't be an obligation for nations that have preserved a national capability.

 

[Archimedes]

On the other hand, why haven’t France gone it alone already with FCAS???

Cost - realistically, the UK, France and Sweden could develop a 5.5 Gen combat aircraft, and possibly even 6th Gen, but the cost of doing so would be prohibitive. You'd not go alone unless there was a risk that the cost would be part of the national aerospace industry's design capability collapsing, or that partnership would compromise the design excessively. Neither applies with FCAS. Also, the question of how many FCAS would be exported arises - better to build (say) 500 with a couple of partners and perhaps export another 50-100, rather than build (say) 200 for your air force and navy and see the export market prove tricky because NGAD/Tempest were competing for the same orders

Would you consider F-35 as being American? I think the U.K. probably did well getting involved in that from an IP perspective,

It's an American aircraft with significant content provided by British firms (note that some of these British firms are making their contribution via facilities in the US - the question of whether the 15%+ UK content means 'British built' has been floating around a bit recently).

 

[Slime]

Cost - realistically, the UK, France and Sweden could develop a 5.5 Gen combat aircraft, and possibly even 6th Gen, but the cost of doing so would be prohibitive. You'd not go alone unless there was a risk that the cost would be part of the national aerospace industry's design capability collapsing, or that partnership would compromise the design excessively. Neither applies with FCAS. Also, the question of how many FCAS would be exported arises - better to build (say) 500 with a couple of partners and perhaps export another 50-100, rather than build (say) 200 for your air force and navy and see the export market prove tricky because NGAD/Tempest were competing for the same orders



It's an American aircraft with significant content provided by British firms (note that some of these British firms are making their contribution via facilities in the US - the question of whether the 15%+ UK content means 'British built' has been floating around a bit recently).

Dont worry, I’m fully aware of why France wants partners with FCAS
It‘s only Fantassin saying France can afford it, and posting many farcical posts about Frances ability to go it alone.


I have also already mentioned the fact that having built in partners adds built in airframe numbers.
While we have seen Australia now use F18 and F35 instead of ordering more French aircraft, we will no doubt see even more air forces decide a new sixth gen ‘carrier capable’ aircraft might not be the answer for their poor land locked country, or country with no carrier.

There is something rather odd about a lot of French people, and their belief (without evidence) that French tech is always best when it comes to aircraft. It seems to go well beyond the ‘USA is best’ attitude shown by some Americans.

The internet is awash with posters claiming the Rafale is the most advanced and most stealthy aircraft in the world.

Rafale is an excellent aircraft, of that there is no doubt, but to believe it’s far more stealthy than an F35 or F22, and would always beat those two in air to air combat is somewhat pushing things.

 

[Slime]

The Balzac was not admitted into the FAF or any other air force hence l did not mention it.

The decision to do joint program is purely political. Technicaly speaking, nothing warrants it

The Crusader were retired 22 years ago. Not "fairly recently"

Biying from the USA is always the last resort, when acquiring niche aircrafts. Why is it so difficult to understand that becoming a vassal state is not desirable ?

I can see you are trying to live in a fantasy world here.
I have seen you go from ‘jets’ to meaning mach 2 jets, and then even that didnt work.
I‘ve seen you say France can go it alone..........but they haven’t.

I’ve seen you make false claims about French air to air kills being highest.
You have complained about aircraft from 70 years ago not being relevant, only to then mention aircraft from 70 years ago yourself.

You have now said an aircraft retiring 22 years ago isn’t recent, in the post AFTER you mentioned the Ouragon!!!!!!

Luckily for you no one picked apart your idea that German aircraft had ever been better than a french ones!!! I only wish that were true. It would have saved my parents house from being bombed by German aircraft based in France!

But, as you don’t like talking about the past, You will know that ‘as a last resort’ in your opinion........France has recently bought more C130 aircraft...........Odd really, bearing in mind France have been involved in building many transports and including one still being built.

Why do you think the French, with their many decades of know how bought more American transports, rather than the far more recently designed A400?
I‘d suggest it’s the same reason lots of other countries (who can’t go it alone) prefer the C130.

 

[fantassin]

I can see you are trying to live in a fantasy world here.
I have seen you go from ‘jets’ to meaning mach 2 jets, and then even that didnt work.
I‘ve seen you say France can go it alone..........but they haven’t.

I’ve seen you make false claims about French air to air kills being highest.
You have complained about aircraft from 70 years ago not being relevant, only to then mention aircraft from 70 years ago yourself.

You have now said an aircraft retiring 22 years ago isn’t recent, in the post AFTER you mentioned the Ouragon!!!!!!

Luckily for you no one picked apart your idea that German aircraft had ever been better than a french ones!!! I only wish that were true. It would have saved my parents house from being bombed by German aircraft based in France!

But, as you don’t like talking about the past, You will know that ‘as a last resort’ in your opinion........France has recently bought more C130 aircraft...........Odd really, bearing in mind France have been involved in building many transports and including one still being built.

I can mostly see you cannot read and like to warp my words or place them out of context.

Each of the above statements are false, warped or haven't been made by me. I won't lose time answering a second rate PhotEx

 

[Slime]

I can mostly see you cannot read and like to warp my words or place them out of context.

Each of the above statements are false, warped or haven't been made by me. I won't lose time answering a second rate PhotEx

What you can probably see is that you made statements that were shown to be false..........that was your choice.

You then tried to say you had meant something you HADN'T said.........that was your choice not to be clear.

You then complained about aircraft from 70 years ago not being relevant, and followed that by mentioning a French aircraft from 1949!!!!

Sadly for you, I have studied aviation for the last 40 years, and your successive claims were just wrong. Perhaps aviation isn't your strong area?

You even tried to treat others as fools by changing my point about Rafale airframe sales V Eurofighter sales into a reply about export customers, and even that silly trick didn't come out well as your figures were wrong.

To summarise the bleeding obvious, as an example: If you think that the number of air to air kills for the Mirage 3 is radically better than the 306 for the F4 Phantom I’d suggest you have a numeracy problem.

The massive elephant in the room here, and elsewhere is COST.
As a quick exemplar: You will know that for any country wanting a 24/7/365 aircraft carrier for use as a weapon it needs at least two carriers.

Lots of countries have built carriers. France knows how to build carriers. France knows it needs at least two for constant use.........
How many does it have?

 

[Graculus]

don’t be doing deals with the French for anything Mirage.... or anything with wings come to that.

See their f’ing over of Australia and Israel... spares and even their already paid for bloody planes.

You reckon the RSPs nicked the Mirage & plans all on their lonesome? Never met an Aussie who had a bad word to say about the Mirage.

the French - utterly, utterly untrustworthy*

*Nazi Germany excepted - they found them to be utterly dependable partners.

Someone's upped you rmeds haven't they?

noe back to Tempest, BAE will deliver a first rate state of the art plane that will be a great export success.

Like the Scimitar and Swift? We'll see, I hope that BAE are able to pull out something which is world beating. I suspect however, that we'll be playing catch up with Uncle Sam.

Something not quite the full centime

Your area of expertise.

 

[Gassing_Badgers]

You reckon the RSPs nicked the Mirage & plans all on their lonesome? Never met an Aussie who had a bad word to say about the Mirage.

Someone's upped you rmeds haven't they?

Like the Scimitar and Swift? We'll see, I hope that BAE are able to pull out something which is world beating. I suspect however, that we'll be playing catch up with Uncle Sam.

Your area of expertise.

Fair play to BAe and Air Command* though - they’ve played an absolute blinder in securing a massive wedge at the expense of others here. If (when) it doesn’t work out, some of that cash can just be pushed sideways into another US export order, so they won’t have to do without - like all those AMRAAMs we bought to cover for lack of Meteor.




* Not forgetting that little FCAS programme office in FMC, which just so happens to have a direct line into Mil Cap’s office next door...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[fantassin]

What you can probably see is that you made statements that were shown to be false..........that was your choice.

You then tried to say you had meant something you HADN'T said.........that was your choice not to be clear.

You then complained about aircraft from 70 years ago not being relevant, and followed that by mentioning a French aircraft from 1949!!!!

Sadly for you, I have studied aviation for the last 40 years, and your successive claims were just wrong. Perhaps aviation isn't your strong area?

You even tried to treat others as fools by changing my point about Rafale airframe sales V Eurofighter sales into a reply about export customers, and even that silly trick didn't come out well as your figures were wrong.

To summarise the bleeding obvious, as an example: If you think that the number of air to air kills for the Mirage 3 is radically better than the 306 for the F4 Phantom I’d suggest you have a numeracy problem.

The massive elephant in the room here, and elsewhere is COST.
As a quick exemplar: You will know that for any country wanting a 24/7/365 aircraft carrier for use as a weapon it needs at least two carriers.

Lots of countries have built carriers. France knows how to build carriers. France knows it needs at least two for constant use.........
How many does it have?

Picking and chosing sentences and rearranging them to suit your purpose is not making a point, it is creating confusion.

If I listed 6 generations of aircraft, it was in answer to an assertion that France had no reason to claim it was in a better situation to produce a modern combat aircraft compared to Germany.

France has produced the Mirage IIIC, which has way over 306 air to air kills and as such is the most succesful Mach 2 fighter ever.

Unlike you who throws figures in without any reference, every single Mirage III C or Nesher kill is documented in the listing below.

Israel Air Force Record in Battle

With additional info here:

Attributed Israeli Air Combat Victories

aces.safarikovi.org

You will note, reinforcing my assertion that France has every reason to believe it has more expertise in modern fighter design than Germany, that French jets were already racking air to air victories long before the Mirage III was produced.

If I just look at this source again, you will find another 25 air to air kills by Ouragan, Mystère IV, Super Mystère B2 or Vautour.

In other locations, in different times, you can also add Mirage F-1 air to air kill in Iraq, Angola, Peru as witnesses to French seniority over Germany in the field of fighter design.

I made one factual error regarding EF2000 exports because Austria uses its Tranche 1 so little it had escaped my mind.

lt’s certain there will be more Rafale customers or orders, over 300 are already built or ordered so you assertion of Rafale not neing an export success is blatantly false .

There are currently the same number of Rafale and Gripen on order or produced yet no-one ever writes Gripen is a commercial failure.

France has ordered a small batch of 2 C-130J and 2 KC-130J to compensate for the delay of the Atlas and the development time of the RW AAR capability.

l have written earlier that for niche capability, France buys from the US (AWACS, Hawkeye, MQ-9). These purchases make economical sense, who is going to develop a carrier-borne AWACS when only 3 are needed ?