Tempest Manned Unmanned Fighter Concept

[aardvark64]

Unlikely, France will go it alone if they have to, they are miltantly protective of their Defence Aerospace sector, the issue they'd face is funding, they have the skills, technology and knowledge base to go independently. As Dassault's CEO says above, they are prepared want to go it alone if as they are never happy with the division of work unless it is all done in France, and are very happy for other nations (aka les sots) to pay for it.

FOC

 

[Slime]

I should have been more explicit : mach 2 modern jet, no plane matches the Mirage III combat record of neatly 300 kills.

Far more relevant than self igniting Me 262 in a 2021 context

Yes, you should have, as the mach 2 factor is completely irrelevant in the above claim, so adds nothing to the claim.
You would already know that when those non French pilots used the Mirage against pilots using mostly Soviet tactics in older aircraft the engagement speeds were well below mach 2.
This brings us to the reality that its kills are still literally hundreds less than the other two types already mentioned.
The F86 is the stand out aircraft as it was fighting a mig that had better manouverability, and excellent armament

 

[fantassin]

Yes, you should have, as the mach 2 factor is completely irrelevant in the above claim, so adds nothing to the claim.
You would already know that when those non French pilots used the Mirage against pilots using mostly Soviet tactics in older aircraft the engagement speeds were well below mach 2.
This brings us to the reality that its kills are still literally hundreds less than the other two types already mentioned.
The F86 is the stand out aircraft as it was fighting a mig that had better manouverability, and excellent armament

Within the context of the discussion, that is whether France or Germany is better placed to deliver a quality combat aircraft post 2040, it is more than relevant, especially since Mirage III are still operational in some countries while F-86s are nothing but museum pieces by now.

Project ROSE

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Slime]

Within the context of the discussion, that is whether France or Germany is better placed to deliver a quality combat aircraft post 2040, it is more than relevant, especially since Mirage III are still operational in some countries while F-86s are nothing but museum pieces by now.

Project ROSE

en.wikipedia.org

Ok, if you want to change the rules to still in service or mach 2 etc, you are aware of the F4 Phantom stats aren’t you?

This again doesnt place the Mirage as above other similar tech aircraft...
Using the criteria of: Modern, fast, high kill ratio etc you would find the answer is the USA*, and not any country in Europe.

For everyone else, the F4 has over 300 air to air kills.
The Mig21, also of similar vintage has 240.

*A quick look at the air to air kill ratios of the F14, F15 and F16 demonstrate this, and is further shown by the very high kill ratio of the F14 in Iranian service.

 

[fantassin]

Ok, if you want to change the rules to still in service or mach 2 etc, you are aware of the F4 Phantom stats aren’t you?

This again doesnt place the Mirage as above other similar tech aircraft...
Using the criteria of: Modern, fast, high kill ratio etc you would find the answer is the USA*, and not any country in Europe.

For everyone else, the F4 has over 300 air to air kills.
The Mig21, also of similar vintage has 240.

*A quick look at the air to air kill ratios of the F14, F15 and F16 demonstrate this, and is further shown by the very high kill ratio of the F14 in Iranian service.

Still irrelevant to the matter. In Europe, France has better know how for fighter development than Germany and Spain as the operational history of French jet fighters proves time and again.

 

[PhotEx]

Still irrelevant to the matter. In Europe, France has better know how for fighter development than Germany and Spain as the operational history of French jet fighters proves time and again.

the Phrench need other people’s money to develop a new plane, lots of other people’s money.

The Mirage wasn't all that, it was a very basic aircraft, and a very blatant rip off of the Fairey Delta 2, since then, French aircraft? null points.

Le Mirage - just a copy.

 

[Archimedes]

Just out of interest does anyone have the air to air kill figures for the Hunter and Phantom?

Phantom's something like 305 - Vietnam plus the efforts of the Israelis and the Iranians take it out there.

The RAF take it to 306 if you include the little incident with the Jaguar in 1982 - a kill's a kill, though...

 

[Lindermyer]

the Phrench need other people’s money to develop a new plane, lots of other people’s money.

The Mirage wasn't all that, it was a very basic aircraft, and a very blatant rip off of the Fairey Delta 2, since then, French aircraft? null points.

Le Mirage - just a copy.

View attachment 554977

Then Dassault deserve copious amounts of credit for some ingenious and amazingly fast development work.

I say this because only 2 years seperate the 1st flights of the respective aircraft and theres only 4 years between the Delta 2 design being finalised and the Mirage 1 1st flight.
Edit to avoid confusion thats Mirage 1 AKA Mystere Delta (experimental prototypes) rather than Mirage F1 (being the Mirage 3) into which it (or its concepts) evolved

An achievement virtually unparrallelled** in the field of aviation and never in peacetime.

Perhaps just maybe they are similar simply because many aircraft at that time were Deltas - it being the idea of the day

P.S - Kudos for showing the broadly similar planform (common to pretty much every delta) and not side on where the FD2 cranked profile would have bugger all in common with the Mirage


** Apologies everyone I know how to start spelling unparrallelled - just not where to stop.

 

[Slime]

Still irrelevant to the matter. In Europe, France has better know how for fighter development than Germany and Spain as the operational history of French jet fighters proves time and again.

Heres the thing, France can’t afford to build FCAS on their own, and they especially can’t afford it if they don’t build in existing customers by having partners.

The Rafale is proof that ‘France’s fighter know how’ doesn’t relate to sales success right now.

So, there was no point you trying to infer a French jet aircraft had the highest number of kills.

Or when the obvious fallacy of that was shown you then incorrectly said a Mach 2 jet, which of course was still not as you inferred.

But then YOU decided to bring the subject up!

I suspect almost all of us here knew France would kick off as soon as FCAS was first heard of, it’s not like it’s the first time France have acted like this is it.

France could always just go it alone, and Germany and Spain could join Tempest or NGAD.

The other irrelevance is talking about decades of aircraft know how, that is just bluff and bluster.......whoever says it. The current workers in France haven’t been at their jobs since the ‘60s, and the only real metric to use is their current success.........And while Rafale is very good, not many people want it, as the exports show.

 

[fantassin]

Rafale has the same number of foreign customers as EF : 4

 

[Lindermyer]

Rafale has the same number of foreign customers as EF : 4

Ahem Count again

 

[fantassin]

Ahem Count again

No, the original partners cannot be counted as an export order, they were going to buy it from the moment they joined the program.

EF2000 has 4 export customers. Just like Rafale.

 

[fantassin]

the Phrench need other people’s money to develop a new plane, lots of other people’s money.

The Mirage wasn't all that, it was a very basic aircraft, and a very blatant rip off of the Fairey Delta 2, since then, French aircraft? null points.

Le Mirage - just a copy.

View attachment 554977

Maybe Fairey should have stuck to the delta design. They could have sold over 1,300 planes to more than 20 countries had they done so. What a lack of foresight....

 

[PhotEx]

Then Dassault deserve copious amounts of credit for some ingenious and amazingly fast development work.

I say this because only 2 years seperate the 1st flights of the respective aircraft and theres only 4 years between the Delta 2 design being finalised and the Mirage 1 1st flight.

An achievement virtually unparrallelled** in the field of aviation and never in peacetime.

Perhaps just maybe they are similar simply because many aircraft at that time were Deltas - it being the idea of the day

P.S - Kudos for showing the broadly similar planform (common to pretty much every delta) and not side on where the FD2 cranked profile would have bugger all in common with the Mirage


** Apologies everyone I know how to start spelling unparrallelled - just not where to stop.

yes, because no one in France never indulged in industrial espionage - the true French ’development’ way - Steal Faireys development work.
except of course when they are using bought in Nazi technology, see their ATAR engines - have the French designed a world class engine since the ATAR series? Mais non my little born again Phroglophile.

 

[Lindermyer]

No, the original partners cannot be counted as an export order, they were going to buy it from the moment they joined the program.

EF2000 has 4 export customers. Just like Rafale.

I hate to do this aka Frog Bash (even at this limited level) on a thread where Photex is being his usual Bigoted self**

Austria
Oman
Quatar
Saudi
Kuwait

Im assuming (and in light of world focus on covid not unforgivably) missed Kuwait

**Lets be honest if he expressed his opinions of other groups in the same manner the twunt would be ropped

 

[Lindermyer]

yes, because no one in France never indulged in industrial espionage - the true French ’development’ way - Steal Faireys development work.

I refer you again to the time line - doesnt seem plausible

except of course when they are using bought in Nazi technology, see their ATAR engines - have the French designed a world class engine since the ATAR series?

CFM 56 Next question

Mais non my little born again Phroglophile.

You know what ive had a gut full of youre never ending bigortry directed at non British Europeans in general and the French in particular -

Im 1st to agree that frog bashing is a national sport - but you step beyond banter and really are a nasty little racist. The French and german posters on this site shouldnt be subject to youre ill informed inane bigotry on a constant basis.

 

[Lindermyer]

Maybe Fairey should have stuck to the delta design. They could have sold over 1,300 planes to more than 20 countries had they done so. What a lack of foresight....

Said it before and will say it again

Dasault screwed up developing Rafale - its to much aircraft for its Mirage client base, it killed its export options .

I wonder if Dassault shouldnt work on a Mirage 6 - perhaps shared with Bae as a collaberative low end fighter for the 3rd world -

 

[Slime]

Rafale has the same number of foreign customers as EF : 4

The fact you answered that the way you did shows you are probably well aware of the point I was making, and why you tried to avoid giving an honest answer.

Would you like me to think that because the Rafale has the same number of export customers that it has sold as many airframes and support as the Eurofighter......No, thought not.

If you got past the silly France is best blustering you could see that by using the arguments like:
High amount of air to air kills.
High volume of sales.
High volume of export.
High level of possible munitions.
Ability to carry nuclear.
Frequent upgrades.
Lower cost due to volume sales.
Very high kill ratio etc...

The choice would clearly be from a supplier that France has bought many aircraft from in the past.........And, it’s not France

 

[Slime]

Maybe Fairey should have stuck to the delta design. They could have sold over 1,300 planes to more than 20 countries had they done so. What a lack of foresight....

Has Photex hacked your avatar??

Only an idiot would think the FD was comparable to the mirage, or intended for the same purpose.

Edited: to add a winky face that should really have been there all along to aid clarity.

 

[Cold_Collation]

Said it before and will say it again

Dasault screwed up developing Rafale - its to much aircraft for its Mirage client base, it killed its export options .

I wonder if Dassault shouldnt work on a Mirage 6 - perhaps shared with Bae as a collaberative low end fighter for the 3rd world -

Gripen.