Tempest Manned Unmanned Fighter Concept

[fantassin]

Not strictly true... there are Typhoon production lines in both Germany (Manching) and Spain (Getafe); and they've been running for over twenty years. It was part of the "everyone gets a production line, everyone gets a development / integration / test setup" deal.

Note that the Typhoon's intellectual property was shared in full, between the four nations; I implemented one radar mode specified by the Italians, and another specified by the Spanish; and even had a German design engineer reporting to me at one point (I hear he did a good job of porting our software onto the Tranche 2 processor). It's amusing to see Dassault getting all precious about sharing its understanding and IP, but that's the price of being in a consortium.



Note also that there were seven Typhoon prototypes; DA1 through DA7. Each had a focus on a different area of test; e.g. DA5 did most of the radar trials. There were also five "Instrumented Production Aircraft" used for weapon trials, etc.

Suggesting "we only need one prototype", suggests a lack of any background in aircraft development...

I have not suggested one prototype. I have said "leave it to those who have produced successfuly 6 generations of widely exported and combat proven aurcrafts".

Neither Spain nor Germany has any claims to lead such a project. The jet aircraft with the most combat kills to its name is French, not German, US or Spanish.

 

[Slime]

I have not suggested one prototype. I have said "leave it to those who have produced successfuly 6 generations of widely exported and combat proven aurcrafts".

Neither Spain nor Germany has any claims to lead such a project. The jet aircraft with the most combat kills to its name is French, not German, US or Spanish.

I’m genuinely surprised a French built jet has the most combat kills.
It must have done well to beat the 800 kills the US F86 made!

 

[Majorpain]

Neither Spain nor Germany has any claims to lead such a project. The jet aircraft with the most combat kills to its name is French, not German, US or Spanish.

 

[rampant]

Germany’s never going to allow it.
I suspect that France will pull out and go it alone. Germany and Spain will carry on, and just after development of the Franco German fighter, Germany will mandate that the design is pan European, insist that it be used by all European nations as part of an EU initiative, throw a few scraps to a few other EU companies and build the majority of the aircraft themselves.

Lessons learnt from the project will be used to try and destroy the French aerospace industry in order to make the German area space industry the dominant force on the continent.

Unlikely, France will go it alone if they have to, they are miltantly protective of their Defence Aerospace sector, the issue they'd face is funding, they have the skills, technology and knowledge base to go independently. As Dassault's CEO says above, they are prepared to go it alone if they are happy with the division of work.

 

[PhotEx]

I have not suggested one prototype. I have said "leave it to those who have produced successfuly 6 generations of widely exported and combat proven aurcrafts".

Neither Spain nor Germany has any claims to lead such a project. The jet aircraft with the most combat kills to its name is French, not German, US or Spanish.

Air France ‘kills’ don’t count.

 

[Slime]

View attachment 554838

We have the Me262 at 500 kills, the F86 at 800.............

This as yet un named French jet must be REALLY good

 

[MoleBath]

Pilotless RAF aircraft are going to hit these guys pretty hard.

 

[fantassin]

We have the Me262 at 500 kills, the F86 at 800.............

This as yet un named French jet must be REALLY good

I should have been more explicit : mach 2 modern jet, no plane matches the Mirage III combat record of neatly 300 kills.

Far more relevant than self igniting Me 262 in a 2021 context

 

[ThunderBox]

I should have been more explicit : mach 2 modern jet, no plane matches the Mirage III combat record of neatly 300 kills.

Far more relevant than self igniting Me 262 in a 2021 context

It’s just as irrelevant.

 

[PhotEx]

I should have been more explicit : mach 2 modern jet, no plane matches the Mirage III combat record of neatly 300 kills.

Far more relevant than self igniting Me 262 in a 2021 context

300 kills by anyone but the French.

 

[fantassin]

300 kills by anyone but the French.

Who designed, built and sold them in great numbers

 

[PhotEx]

Who designed, built and sold them in great numbers

bit like all the fighters you built for the Germans in 1941-44

see also your SNECMA ATAR jet engines, the best Nazi jet engines money could buy.

 

[fantassin]

Clever ain't it ?

 

[Edwardian Fred]

Just out of interest does anyone have the air to air kill figures for the Hunter and Phantom?

 

[oldsoak]

Clever ain't it ?

Exactly. Why re-invent the jet engine ?
I do sometimes wonder if German WW2 tech was somehow treated with disdain by the UK as being "Nazi" as we didn't capitalise on swept wings etc. Iirc, the Germans had openly published papers about the theory of swept wings just prior to the outbreak of WW2.

 

[Himmler74]

Who designed, built and sold them in great numbers

How many mirages were shot down by the RN?

 

[Himmler74]

I have not suggested one prototype. I have said "leave it to those who have produced successfuly 6 generations of widely exported and combat proven aurcrafts".

Neither Spain nor Germany has any claims to lead such a project. The jet aircraft with the most combat kills to its name is French, not German, US or Spanish.

What’s the kill ratio? As the F15 is untouchable in that aspect, the sea harrier comes a close second as only been shot down by AAA or SAM.

 

[ThunderBox]

But as I said, it’s irrelevant. Replace any of those shot down with an F-35 or F-22 and it would be completely reversed.

Different era, I’m sure more people have been killed by stones than an AK-47 doesn’t make them any better.

 

[Graculus]

Franco German Tensions with FCAS

SCAF, faut-il persévérer dans l’erreur ?

CHRONIQUE. "Une réflexion sur la pérennité de la coopération bilatérale franco-allemande pourrait s'imposer si les revendications fantaisistes de Berlin devaient perdurer", estime le groupe de réflexions Mars. Car le SCAF met à l'épreuve la solidité du couple entre Berlin et Paris. Par le groupe...

www.latribune.fr

FCAS: Is the Franco-German-Spanish Combat Air Programme Really in Trouble?

A new European combat aircraft is still likely to emerge from a programme plagued by mismatched national positions, priorities and industrial responsibilities., In February 2020, France and Germany signed a €150-million investment agreement to fund early prototyping and scoping work on their...

rusi.org

It's like FEFA déjà vu all over again....

 

[oldsoak]

Red sea pedestrians liked their Mirages.
As did the Saffies and PAF.
If you think of wars in which Mirages have been involved in, they don't have a bad combat record.
FI conflict was interesting. Operating at extreme range with an inferior missile and radar ? limited time on station, even less at combat power ? Be something if they managed a kill. Thankfully they didn't.