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Telegraph: "Royal Navy To Halve Number Of Staff At Headquarters, As Sailors Are Redeployed To Front Line Roles"

It's an interesting approach. As per SoS instruction, get the ships to sea before asking him to go to HMT for more bunce and given that manpower is probably one of the two biggest drivers in unavailable ships, a good place to start.

BUT - and this is where it gets interesting - will the proposed "predictability" compensate for the reduced number of shore drafts wrt retention? Even more importantly - is a smaller HQ able to do the essential staff work (both operational and budgetary/political) to the required level of quality (by which I mean effectiveness)? Will the reduction in star posts reduce career paths for the talent and lead to earlier exit?

In no doubt it has to be tried - no one is going to fund an uplift to RN manpower because we ask nicely - there has to have been a determined effort to make the existing structure as efficient and fit for purpose as possible. But it will be interesting to see whether this strengthens or weakens the RN political base - by which I mean the ability to fight the political battles in MB. It's now nearly 20 years since we had a dark blue CDS and given the decision-making structures in town, that does matter.
...and what metrics are used to gauge 'effectiveness'?
 
It's an interesting approach. As per SoS instruction, get the ships to sea before asking him to go to HMT for more bunce and given that manpower is probably one of the two biggest drivers in unavailable ships, a good place to start.

BUT - and this is where it gets interesting - will the proposed "predictability" compensate for the reduced number of shore drafts wrt retention? Even more importantly - is a smaller HQ able to do the essential staff work (both operational and budgetary/political) to the required level of quality (by which I mean effectiveness)? Will the reduction in star posts reduce career paths for the talent and lead to earlier exit?

In no doubt it has to be tried - no one is going to fund an uplift to RN manpower because we ask nicely - there has to have been a determined effort to make the existing structure as efficient and fit for purpose as possible. But it will be interesting to see whether this strengthens or weakens the RN political base - by which I mean the ability to fight the political battles in MB. It's now nearly 20 years since we had a dark blue CDS and given the decision-making structures in town, that does matter.

where its going to be fun and tears is all the civilians now expected to pick up the pieces and run with it.

what’s that? They are the older experienced middle grades who’ve been locked in a de facto pay freeze at the top of their bands for years?

what’s that? They can get a rise via promotion? Yes, but give up a weeks holiday and loose half their sick pay .....oh look it, no overall gain, shove your NEM where the sun don’t shine.

whats that? Their attitude when asked to step up is currently, FOAD, I’m just counting down to retirement and DGAF. See above.

They parachuted in loads of bright young graduates at C2 grade last year, but as its often their first job, Avd they have no real world experience, their burn out and leave rate is spectacular.... ‘why won’t you show me what to do!....see above.

its a self inflicted big merde sandwich....and in @ 5 years, the CS will loose most of its old school old and bolds.
 

Fake Sheikh

War Hero
There are currently 41 admirals, vice-admirals and rear-admirals but with constant cuts the number of fighting ships in the Navy now stands at just 40. So 1 for every ship then, that is value for money if you are an admiral.
 
Because rank is generally aligned to responsibility, qualifications and experience - and most importantly of all, accountability.

which is a pleasant fiction we have saddled ourselves with.

My MO is paid more than me, despite carrying less day to day responsibility.

There are plenty of civvy specialists who come onboard who are paid more than their service counterparts, with far narrower responsibilities.

We have just chosen to shackle pay, rank and responsibility together.
 
D

Deleted 3147

Guest
which is a pleasant fiction we have saddled ourselves with.

My MO is paid more than me, despite carrying less day to day responsibility.

There are plenty of civvy specialists who come onboard who are paid more than their service counterparts, with far narrower responsibilities.

We have just chosen to shackle pay, rank and responsibility together.

You don't have an MO, you've an LMA? The point is sound but an MO has different responsibility and a SQEP that we recompense to develop. Conversely you could argue in the MO instance we've delatched responsibility/rank/pay?

Equally we bring in deep specialists and pay for a service they deliver we don't pay to develop internally. You might have a Mode 5 maintainer he/she won't ever be a deep deep SME, our people even the "SMEs" only go so far.
 
You don't have an MO, you've an LMA? The point is sound but an MO has different responsibility and a SQEP that we recompense to develop. Conversely you could argue in the MO instance we've delatched responsibility/rank/pay?

Equally we bring in deep specialists and pay for a service they deliver we don't pay to develop internally. You might have a Mode 5 maintainer he/she won't ever be a deep deep SME, our people even the "SMEs" only go so far.

I've a MO, they're just loafing shoreside!

I get there are a whole host of issues with delatching pay/responsibility/authority, but we've got to deal with it somehow. The outside world is much flatter, pays differently, and does SQEP in a different manner. I don't think we're big enough to be "different" just for the sake of it.
 
I've a MO, they're just loafing shoreside!

I get there are a whole host of issues with delatching pay/responsibility/authority, but we've got to deal with it somehow. The outside world is much flatter, pays differently, and does SQEP in a different manner. I don't think we're big enough to be "different" just for the sake of it.
It's not a question of 'being different for the sake of it'. The Armed Forces cannot operate effectively without a formal rank structure - by all means adjust trade/specialist pay within this structure, but without it the whole edifice will collapse. Incidentally - perhaps you can point us in the direction of any other nation that has successfully de-linked pay and allowances from rank?
 
D

Deleted 3147

Guest
I get there are a whole host of issues with delatching pay/responsibility/authority, but we've got to deal with it somehow. The outside world is much flatter, pays differently, and does SQEP in a different manner. I don't think we're big enough to be "different" just for the sake of it.

I don't think it's a question of size, its function, we are different and trying to pretend we're not has caused all manner of issues.
 
Having said that, I've met a couple of officers (not in my CoC) who think I (now a civvie) should address them by their rank or call them Sir. Yeah good luck with that mate.
I still call some of my old bosses by their rank when our paths cross socially. That’s because they are to a man, good eggs, have earned my respect and are usually the sort who insist on being called by their first name anyway! Old school I suppose.
In the case of choppers, I try to avoid them anyway!
 
It's not a question of 'being different for the sake of it'. The Armed Forces cannot operate effectively without a formal rank structure - by all means adjust trade/specialist pay within this structure, but without it the whole edifice will collapse. Incidentally - perhaps you can point us in the direction of any other nation that has successfully de-linked pay and allowances from rank?

Has anyone ever tried?
 

Rab_C

War Hero
It's not a question of 'being different for the sake of it'. The Armed Forces cannot operate effectively without a formal rank structure - by all means adjust trade/specialist pay within this structure, but without it the whole edifice will collapse. Incidentally - perhaps you can point us in the direction of any other nation that has successfully de-linked pay and allowances from rank?
Ah trade pay, remind me again why the RN has issues with the engineering branches? A CPO Steward really is worth the same as a CPO Engineering branch.
Signed
A bitter ex Tiff.
 
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Has anyone ever tried?
I prepare to be corrected on this, but the USSR is the only example I can think of. They did away with formal recognition of ranks (ie calling people “sir”) and shoulder boards for rank recognition.
I think both were reinstated in 1942 as the Soviets realised that a general chit-chat about objectives followed by a show of hands wasn’t going to win a war.
 

SamYeager15

Swinger
Citing the Danish navy’s Huitfeldt class of frigates, he said: “They have only three different grades of engineer on board. We have nine different grades. So can we get flatter, leaner and more efficient?

Any thoughts on how likely/realistic this thought might be?
 

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