Telegraph: Putin on trial

#1
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/...GAVCBQUIV0?xml=/opinion/2007/01/27/dl2702.xml

We do not know who poisoned Alexander Litvinenko...He was killed on British soil. The responsibility for catching his murderer therefore lies with Scotland Yard.
...
the Metropolitan Police is about to pass a file to the Crown Prosecution Service which raises the question whether Andrei Lugovoi, a former KGB bodyguard, should be tried for the murder...
...
Mr Lugovoi denies any involvement in the murder. But, for the moment, his guilt or innocence is not the primary issue. What has also emerged is that, if the CPS asks for his extradition, the Russian government will probably block the move. According to Moscow sources, President Putin will agree to a British trial only if, in return, Britain allows the extradition of Boris Berezovsky. That will not happen, since British courts have ruled – correctly – that the charges of fraud against the oligarch are politically motivated.

British officials are reported to have found it difficult to explain to Moscow that our courts are independent of the government. We suspect that Mr Putin actually has no problem grasping this point. If he blocks a fair trial, he will do so knowingly. That will be the act not of an ally, or even a neutral country, but of the hostile power that Russia is fast becoming.
British courts are independent of the government? Don't make me laugh. British court even didn't regarded the case of Berzovsky. There was a well established, well documented episode that mr.Berezovsky stole $15mln. But British government granted to the tycoon a status of political refugee so on this basis 'independent' british court even didn't look at numerous documents and evidences.

How it had happened? Mr.Berozovsky that time partially controlled auto-VAZ - the biggest Russian car manufacturer. The plant had to pay local taxes - about $15mln. To do so 2000 car were transferred to the firm that mr.Berezovsky owned. He sold these cars but no one rouble was transffered to the budget of Samara region. Moreover there are documents that show how these money were spent and how mr.Berazovsky was benfited.

'Independent' British court could at least regard this case, arrest a property of mr.Berezovsky and compensate damage. Extradiction itself is not so important. Simply call a thief by his name and that's all. Only after that it would be possible to look at allegation made by British investigators. Have they a firm proof or only suppositions?
 
#2
Sergey,

We operate with the rule of law rather than the acting on the opinion of a individual with dictorial powers who doesn't like opposition.

British courts are independent of the government? Don't make me laugh
Have you not been following the UK news with the effective rebellion of the Judges over the lack of jail space and sentencing "guidelines" suggested this week by our Home Secretary?

The independance of our legal system is away ahead of yours, by a long long way
 
#3
KGB_resident said:
...
How it had happened? Mr.Berozovsky that time partially controlled auto-VAZ - the biggest Russian car manufacturer. The plant had to pay local taxes - about $15mln. To do so 2000 car were transferred to the firm that mr.Berezovsky owned. He sold these cars but no one rouble was transffered to the budget of Samara region. Moreover there are documents that show how these money were spent and how mr.Berazovsky was benfited...
Berezovsky's a criminal oligarch, no doubt of that I think. But his real 'crime' was to go against Putin, unlike other a others just as guilty but smart enough not to oppose. They're still free today on the streets of Moscow, St. Pete's, Surgut...or hosting the Russian version of "The Apprentice" (Kandidat) like Potanin.

The moral of the story; support Putin or run. Mr. Khodorkovsky, once the 16th richest man in the world, realized this to late when he supported opponents of the Karate Kid. Nine years in a Russian prison.
 
#4
May I, at this juncture, and possibly just to start a fight, mention Pinoche?

I'm all for the bloke, but his extradition was blocked by independent British courts on the say-so of the UK gummint.

The latest news on the ruskie is that it now looks like he was actually done in the hotel with a cup of tea containing a dash of milk, two sugars, hot water and not a little fizzing polonium), not the bar. Who does that point the finger at?
 
#5
in_the_cheapseats said:
The independance of our legal system is away ahead of yours, by a long long way
http://www.vor.ru/?view=news_eng&mode=arx&id=9945

London court has thrown out a Russian extradition request for the notorious tycoon Boris Berezovsky. Bow Street Magistrates' Court explained its decision by the fact that three years ago Berezovsky was granted political asylum in the UK. On February 28 the then Foreign Secretary Jack Straw issued a stern warning to Boris Berezovsky that his political refugee status could be revised if he continued using the country of his current residence to foment violent riots and terrorism in other counties. Commenting on Mr. Straw’s statement Judge Workman noted that the Foreign Secretary could not authorize anyone’s extradition to Russia.
What body had granted political asylum to mr.Berezovsky? It's British government. Why the court has declined the extradiction request? Because of decision made by British government. So by own decisions British government is able to prejudge decisions of British courts. And you claim that British courts are fully 'independent'.

Look, Bow Street Magistrates' Court hasn't even regarded evidences, agruments, the case itself. Its ruling was based solely on the decision made by British government.
 
#6
Virgil said:
KGB_resident said:
...
How it had happened? Mr.Berozovsky that time partially controlled auto-VAZ - the biggest Russian car manufacturer. The plant had to pay local taxes - about $15mln. To do so 2000 car were transferred to the firm that mr.Berezovsky owned. He sold these cars but no one rouble was transffered to the budget of Samara region. Moreover there are documents that show how these money were spent and how mr.Berazovsky was benfited...
Berezovsky's a criminal oligarch, no doubt of that I think. But his real 'crime' was to go against Putin, unlike other a others just as guilty but smart enough not to oppose. They're still free today on the streets of Moscow, St. Pete's, Surgut...or hosting the Russian version of "The Apprentice" (Kandidat) like Potanin.

The moral of the story; support Putin or run. Mr. Khodorkovsky, once the 16th richest man in the world, realized this to late when he supported opponents of the Karate Kid. Nine years in a Russian prison.
You are absolutely right.
 
#7
KGB_resident said:
in_the_cheapseats said:
The independance of our legal system is away ahead of yours, by a long long way
http://www.vor.ru/?view=news_eng&mode=arx&id=9945

London court has thrown out a Russian extradition request for the notorious tycoon Boris Berezovsky. Bow Street Magistrates' Court explained its decision by the fact that three years ago Berezovsky was granted political asylum in the UK. On February 28 the then Foreign Secretary Jack Straw issued a stern warning to Boris Berezovsky that his political refugee status could be revised if he continued using the country of his current residence to foment violent riots and terrorism in other counties. Commenting on Mr. Straw’s statement Judge Workman noted that the Foreign Secretary could not authorize anyone’s extradition to Russia.
What body had granted political asylum to mr.Berezovsky? It's British government. Why the court has declined the extradiction request? Because of decision made by British government. So by own decisions British government is able to prejudge decisions of British courts. And you claim that British courts are fully 'independent'.

Look, Bow Street Magistrates' Court hasn't even regarded evidences, agruments, the case itself. Its ruling was based solely on the decision made by British government.
It is called the Rule of Law Sergey. The only way judges can look at the decision of the government is by the way of judicial review. Unfortunately 3 years after the decision falls well out of the 28 day window for judicial review of a decision. I do think there is more to this but I can't remember all of my judicial review stuff.

To be honest it probably was a political decision and the judges will have used this to cover up their real reasoning thus saving the Russians from the embarrassment of them saying that they do not believe he will be given a fair trial, a right accorded to him under the human rights act (and the ECHR before anybody jumps on that band wagon). Judges in the UK are not allowed to extradite if the person will not be given a fair trial or any other human rights.
 
#8
KGB_resident said:
Virgil said:
KGB_resident said:
...
How it had happened? Mr.Berozovsky that time partially controlled auto-VAZ - the biggest Russian car manufacturer. The plant had to pay local taxes - about $15mln. To do so 2000 car were transferred to the firm that mr.Berezovsky owned. He sold these cars but no one rouble was transffered to the budget of Samara region. Moreover there are documents that show how these money were spent and how mr.Berazovsky was benfited...
Berezovsky's a criminal oligarch, no doubt of that I think. But his real 'crime' was to go against Putin, unlike other a others just as guilty but smart enough not to oppose. They're still free today on the streets of Moscow, St. Pete's, Surgut...or hosting the Russian version of "The Apprentice" (Kandidat) like Potanin.

The moral of the story; support Putin or run. Mr. Khodorkovsky, once the 16th richest man in the world, realized this to late when he supported opponents of the Karate Kid. Nine years in a Russian prison.
You are absolutely right.
So you agree with Vigil that to go against Putin means you are going to end up in jail? So you don't disagree with my dictorial comment earlier? What does that imply about your own judicial independence?

Yet again I'm failing to see what you are getting at, Sergey. The story about Berezovsky is old news (Feb 06). Why get upset about it now? Or don't you have anything else to base your rant on?

You appear to be railing against what you see as a lack of independence of UK courts (an idea that all but you on this thread disagree with) but telling us that things are far far worse at home.

Am I wrong?
 
#9
jest265 said:
It is called the Rule of Law Sergey.
I dare to disagree. In the discussed cases decisions has been made by politicians.

British government granted political asylum to mr.Berezovsky. It was a politically motivated decision. Russian authorities demanded his extradiction mainly for political reasons using his finacial tricks as a formal cause. It is a purely political game, where courts and judges only imitate 'the Rule of Law'.

jest265 said:
The only way judges can look at the decision of the government is by the way of judicial review. Unfortunately 3 years after the decision falls well out of the 28 day window for judicial review of a decision. I do think there is more to this but I can't remember all of my judicial review stuff.

To be honest it probably was a political decision and the judges will have used this to cover up their real reasoning...
Judges cover up their real reasoning... Is it a rule of the Law? If the UK is really free country then why judges do need to hide their real reasonings?

jest265 said:
... thus saving the Russians from the embarrassment of them saying that they do not believe he will be given a fair trial, a right accorded to him under the human rights act (and the ECHR before anybody jumps on that band wagon). Judges in the UK are not allowed to extradite if the person will not be given a fair trial or any other human rights.
I haven't any intetion to interfer into British leagal system. Maybe it is the best in the World. But it seem to me that Russian authorities can use absolutely the same argument. As Litvinenko case has huge political component then unlikely future trial would be fair.
 
#10
in_the_cheapseats said:
So you agree with Vigil that to go against Putin means you are going to end up in jail?
Yes and no. Garry Kasparov (chess champion) is a fierce critic of mr.Putin but he is not in jail. But thieves that oppose to mr.Putin have good chances to end up in the jail. Other thieves are of course 'respected businesmen'. Name Roman springs in mind in this context.

in_the_cheapseats said:
So you don't disagree with my dictorial comment earlier? What does that imply about your own judicial independence?
Russian cours are dependent for authorities. By contrast British courts are relatively independent. but only relatively, not absolutely.

in_the_cheapseats said:
Yet again I'm failing to see what you are getting at, Sergey. The story about Berezovsky is old news (Feb 06). Why get upset about it now? Or don't you have anything else to base your rant on?
The UK seeks deportation of mr.Lugovoy - a suspect in Litvinenko case and Russian side again ask for deportation of mr.Berezovsky. Both cases (and respective decisions) are politically motivated.

Edited to add:

Putin should be on trial for existing (in Russia) atmosphere of lawlessness. Russia is now a kingdom of 'businessmen'- thieves and corrupted offcials. 'Human rights' groups mainly prefer to defend rights of criminals, rights of crooks.

So don't think that I'm a defender of Putin's regime. But still I think that it would be right fot British court to regard case of mr.Berezovsky, to look into it closely, arrest his property, call him by his true name - thief. Extradiction is not so important.

It hasn't been done and I believe for political reasons.
 

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