Telegraph: Only in a democracy can you cry police state

Is the UK a police state?

  • Yes, it is.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Very close to it.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • There are some elements of it.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Rather no.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, of course.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
#2
The cry of 'Police State' is easily made but very few people who cry it in the UK are really thinking about what it means.

We are a very long way from being a police state. The anti-terror laws that are often refered to are less severe than those experienced in Ulster during the height of the troubles.

If you really want to know what being in a police state is like take a trip to any number of African countries that don't feature in holiday brochures or perhaps even Russia.
 
#3
The people who cry police state, don't know what a police state is. If they want to know what a police state is, they need to try living these countries where sharia law rules e.g. Saudi Arabia with it's Religious Police. They would not be arrested and released for lack of evidence, but instead they would disappear, as in some South American countries. They would be arrested and held under possible house arrest for critisising the Government as in Myanmar.

Why listen to these whining morons who don't realize how good they really have it?
 
#4
TheHelpfulStacker said:
The cry of 'Police State' is easily made but very few people who cry it in the UK are really thinking about what it means.

We are a very long way from being a police state. The anti-terror laws that are often refered to are less severe than those experienced in Ulster during the height of the troubles.

If you really want to know what being in a police state is like take a trip to any number of African countries that don't feature in holiday brochures or perhaps even Russia.
Also,might be worth reading up on some of the finer points of the Emergency Powers Act 1939, and subesquent wartime measures, the powers that the Ministry of Food had,would probably send a shiver down most peoples spine.

Needs must when the devil vomits in your kettle.
 
#5
There are different opinions.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1400584,00.html

The home secretary, Charles Clarke, is transforming Britain into a police state, one of the country's former leading anti-terrorist police chiefs said yesterday.

George Churchill-Coleman, who headed Scotland Yard's anti-terrorist squad as they worked to counter the IRA during their mainland attacks in the late 1980s and early 1990s, said Mr Clarke's proposals to extend powers, such as indefinite house arrest, were "not practical" and threatened to further marginalise minority communities.

Mr Churchill-Coleman told the Guardian: "I have a horrible feeling that we are sinking into a police state, and that's not good for anybody. We live in a democracy and we should police on those standards.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4422086.stm

Mr Blair said: "We are not living in a police state but we are living in a country that faces a real and serious threat of terrorism."
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/05022007/323/archbishop-york-sees-threat-police-state.html

Archbishop of York sees threat of 'police state'
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/media/story/0,,1760429,00.html

So some commentators routinely use language like 'police state', 'fascist', 'hijacking our democracy', 'creeping authoritarianism', 'destruction of the rule of law', whilst words like 'holocaust', 'gulag' and 'apartheid' are regularly used descriptively of our society in ways which must be truly offensive to those who experienced those realities.

As these descriptions and language are used, the truth just flies out of the window, as does any adherence to professional journalistic standards or any requirement to examine the facts and check them with rigour. In the case of often complex debates, for example on the appropriate balance between liberty and security, much media comment reduces itself to simplistic and flowery rhetoric.
...
what about the statement: "People wearing satirical T-shirts in a "designated area" may be arrested under the Prevention of Terrorism Act. The City of London is a permanently 'designated area'". Wrong again. There is no such provision in any Prevention of Terrorism Act. Nor is there any law against bad taste in t-shirts as long as they do not, for example, incite murder.
Btw, am I allowed to wear a satirical T-shirt in the UK?
 
#6
Church opposition to government measures that could be construed as repressive is nothing new, IRRC, in the book 'Enemy Within, The: Hucksters, Racketeers, Deserters, and Civilians During the Second World War' there are several references to the opposition to wartime emergency measures, (percieved by said individuals as 'repressive') by some fairly senior members of the clergy.

A link to the book can be found here
 
#7
KGB_resident said:
Btw, am I allowed to wear a satirical T-shirt in the UK?
Not too sure.

Whilst you're here, could I set up a free and independant media organisation in Moscow and report on Russian government corruption without being censored by Putin?

A Russian questioning if the UK is a Police Stae, oh lord.

Pot calling kettle, pot calling kettle, message over.
 
#8
TheHelpfulStacker said:
KGB_resident said:
Btw, am I allowed to wear a satirical T-shirt in the UK?
Not too sure.

Whilst you're here, could I set up a free and independent media organisation in Moscow and report on Russian government corruption without being censored by Putin?
Of course you could. It is a question of money.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2004/12/14/011.html

More than 1,000 liberal activists, politicians and critics of President Vladimir Putin gathered at a congress in Moscow on Sunday to oppose what they called a rollback of democracy, while elsewhere in the city a nationalist congress called for "constructive opposition" to the Kremlin and about 15,000 supporters of the Moving Together group marched through the streets in support of Putin.

Also Sunday, the 10th anniversary of the Constitution, Putin signed into law a bill scrapping direct elections for governors and said he had "no plans" to change the Constitution.
You can freely buy The Moscow Times (also in Russian).

Btw, 25th channel in Moscow re-translates EuroNews (in Russian) 24 hours a day. It is aslo brodcasting 5 hour a day on federal Channel-5. I heard that Voice of America radio plans to terminate its Russian division. The reason is a simple one. There is a lot of news-sources inside Russia. So too few listen VofA now.

Even state-run TV-channels (very biased of course) report about all main news without big gaps.

Every day I listen liberal radio Echo of Moscow in my car on the way to my office. Frequently critics of mr.Putin are being invited. For example chess champion Garry Kasparov.

You can free buy Moscow news (also in Russian).

http://english.mn.ru/english/issue.php?2004-36-15

"He presses the freedom of press, hinders free commerce, he has knocked Russia off its democratic path," Kasparov said in Hamburg on Monday, at the Baltic Development Forum.
...
Garry Kasparov also criticized Putin's latest proposals on changes in the political system. "Now, when we need more democracy, Putin takes steps to destroy it," he said. Putin proposed on Monday to cancel the election of governors by popular vote, and to introduce a fully proportional system of elections to the lower house of the parliament, the State Duma. That would eliminate the individual polls and would further increase the clout of the pro-Kremlin faction and its allies that already enjoy an overwhelming majority.
So of course, I haven't any illusions. Russia is under a rule of criminal Putin's gang but as for information then it is not a big problem to get it.

TheHelpfulStacker said:
A Russian questioning if the UK is a Police Stae, oh lord.

Pot calling kettle, pot calling kettle, message over.
It's not me. I quote opinions of others. Personally I believe that under strong leadership of Rt.Hon.mr.Blair the UK is an example of true democracy.
 
#9
TheHelpfulStacker said:
KGB_resident said:
Btw, am I allowed to wear a satirical T-shirt in the UK?
Not too sure.

Whilst you're here, could I set up a free and independant media organisation in Moscow and report on Russian government corruption without being censored by Putin?

A Russian questioning if the UK is a Police Stae, oh lord.

Pot calling kettle, pot calling kettle, message over.
Censored or alternately bumped off - the fate of more than a few Russian Journos
 
#10
Sven said:
TheHelpfulStacker said:
KGB_resident said:
Btw, am I allowed to wear a satirical T-shirt in the UK?
Not too sure.

Whilst you're here, could I set up a free and independant media organisation in Moscow and report on Russian government corruption without being censored by Putin?

A Russian questioning if the UK is a Police Stae, oh lord.

Pot calling kettle, pot calling kettle, message over.
Censored or alternately bumped off - the fate of more than a few Russian Journos
Sven, what do you know about real Russian situation with journalism, with talented journalists? As Russia became a capitalist country their pens, their tongues have been baught by the big business. Let's look at a well-known liberal journalist Leonid Radzikhovsky.



PhDr., former MP, a speech-writer to late general Lebed (who was a candidate for presidency in 1996 and was on the 3d place after Yeltsin and communist Zyuganov). I repeat he is a true liberal, supporter of the West and Israel.

Is he censored in any way. He is free to write whatever he thinks (and even more). Recently it was discovered that mr.Radzikhovsky is a real author of a series of articles signed by another name. The articles were used in a dirty political war waged by paid polittechnoligists.

Mr.Radzikhovsky explained it as all journalists are the same, all do dirty work for money.

http://ej.ru/comments/entry/2503

It is a replay by mr.Radzikhovsky to another journalist.
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#12
KGB_resident said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/02/09/dl0901.xml
As the only one amongst us here who'd lived in a Police State....what do you think Sergei?

What similarities does the UK have to Russia (particularly it's predecessor)?
 
#13
Sven said:
KGB

What on earth has Your post to do with murdered Journos in Russia. According to the Committee to Protect Journalists

Russia is the third most deadly country for journalists, after Iraq and Algeria, according to the New York-based Committee to Protect Journalists, which says Politkovskaya was at least the 43rd reporter killed for her work in Russia since 1993.
Politkovskaya Killed by Agents of the State?
Sven. Mrs.Politkovskya was writing her articles for years. She discribed real and imaginary wrongdoing of authorities. Really she was very usefull for them. On any question about so called censorship in Russian its rulers could point out to mrs.Politkovskaya saying: she is free to write anything she wishes.

Who namely ordered to kill the journalist is unknown. And I strongly doubt that it was mr.Putin.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6387055,00.html

The number of journalists killed or jailed worldwide has reached its highest level in a decade, with arrests rising as governments seek to control the Internet, an advocacy group said Thursday.

The survey by Reporters Without Borders, a media-advocacy group, found that 81 journalists were killed last year and more than 140 are behind bars. It was the worst year for deaths since 1994, which was marked by the Rwandan genocide, civil war in Algeria and conflict in the former Yugoslavia.

In the United States, blogger Josh Wolf was jailed last August after defying a federal judge's order to hand over his video of a protest at an economic summit of the world's industrial powers.
Let's look at the situation in the UK

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=20830&Valider=OK

Threats remain to journalists and press freedom in Northern Ireland and elsewhere in the UK five years after the murder of the reporter Martin O’Hagan, for which no one has been punished.
Maybe situation in Russia is worse than in USA and the UK, it is possible but only in such a country as Iceland I fancy it is ideal.
 
#14
Biscuits_AB said:
KGB_resident said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/02/09/dl0901.xml
As the only one amongst us here who'd lived in a Poice State....what do you think Sergei?

What similarities does the UK have to Russia (particularly it's predecessor)?
What can I say?

Sometimes ID-cards, internal passports are being regarded as attributes of a police state. I can say you that internal passports are very usefull. They rarely bound freedoms of law-abiding citizens but are very effective against criminals, illegal immigrants and so on. You should show your passport in airports, in hotels, in some other places. It rather boosts security and your own safety.

What similarities does the UK have to Russia? Better to speak about differences. It is very hard for me to imafine that the police in Moscow would kill absolutely innocent man without any cause. Though if it would happen then alas (as in the UK) likely no one would be punished.
 
#15
KGB, did you still have to register with the authorities and receive a stamp in your internal passport if you were visiting another town for more than a few days, or had that gone by your time?
 
#16
stoatman said:
KGB, did you still have to register with the authorities and receive a stamp in your internal passport if you were visiting another town for more than a few days, or had that gone by your time?
No of course, moreover it was not needed in soviet times. I travel across Russia very frequently. Next Monday I will visit a city of Novosibirsk and a coal refinement pland in Kuzbass where I will install industrial automation equipment from Schneider Electric. In a hotel I should show my passport, in airport to be allowed to board, that's all. No stamps.
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#17
KGB_resident said:
Biscuits_AB said:
KGB_resident said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/02/09/dl0901.xml
As the only one amongst us here who'd lived in a Poice State....what do you think Sergei?

What similarities does the UK have to Russia (particularly it's predecessor)?
What can I say?

Sometimes ID-cards, internal passports are being regarded as attributes of a police state. I can say you that internal passports are very usefull. They rarely bound freedoms of law-abiding citizens but are very effective against criminals, illegal immigrants and so on. You should show your passport in airports, in hotels, in some other places. It rather boosts security and your own safety.

What similarities does the UK have to Russia? Better to speak about differences. It is very hard for me to imafine that the police in Moscow would kill absolutely innocent man without any cause. Though if it would happen then alas (as in the UK) likely no one would be punished.
How about murdering former Soviet citizens living in other countries? Do you think that the Kremlin will ever admit to having sanctioned the 'hit'?
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#18
Sticking with 'dodgy' Commie killings:

http:/www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/10/d08564-ab-85e6-4375_94ac36eab299.html
 
#19
Biscuits_AB said:
How about murdering former Soviet citizens living in other countries? Do you think that the Kremlin will ever admit to having sanctioned the 'hit'?
Innocent until proven guilty. Kremlin will admit anything but only after unrefutabale proof.
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
#20
KGB_resident said:
Biscuits_AB said:
How about murdering former Soviet citizens living in other countries? Do you think that the Kremlin will ever admit to having sanctioned the 'hit'?
Innocent until proven guilty. Kremlin will admit anything but only after unrefutabale proof.

Innocent until proven guilty? That's a bit like 'human rights' in that it's not a phrase Russians are familiar with is it?
 

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