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Tebbit Slams Derry And McGuinness

#42
Bugsy7 said:
What qualifies as glorification in my book? How about sending off a murderous military machine to kill something in the region of 50,000 to 250,000 civilians and at the same time writing off about 2,500 Septic dead and around 20,000 seriously wounded, while subjecting people to inhuman torture? Or wriggling excitedly at the thought of war and accepting the tragic deaths of 103 UK military personnel and many thousands of others badly maimed without even a by your leave?

Take your pick - Mumble-bum Bush or Phoney Tony! Now that's what I call "glorification".

MsG
I take it you are here referring to the British and U.S. armies when you use the term "murderous military machine"? - are we to believe that you regarded the British and U.S. armies as 'murderous' even prior to the invasion of Iraq?

"something in the region of 50,000 to 250,000" civilian dead is a little vague if you don't mind my saying so, and gives a whole new meaning to the term 'margin of error' - it's also an irresponsible statement.

Your attempt to equate the murders of the PIRA to the invasion of Iraq is unworkable, and demonstrative of a rather insidious form of moral relativism and equivalence. It's lazy and cheap, and more properly belongs to the Michael Moore school of conspirazoid rantings.

If you have a point to make, then make it, but spare us the spittle-flecked tirades and sweeping generalisations.
 
#43
RUCForever; We Haven't Gone Away You Know - i reckon you live by that! :D

Continuity RUC - Policing near you 8)
 
#45
Dear gallowglass,

As always, you bring the voice of reason into what could be am argument that descends into senseless bickering. If you recall my words, I originally said that I, personally, have no rememberance of Martin McGuinness or Gerry Adams ever having "glorified terrorism". However, I've only listened to the both of them on about ten occasions at the most. And they were speaking in public.

What I object to, however, is the universal condemnation by implication to which they're continually subjected, inspite of the fact that they were elected by the people in democratic fashion. Not for one moment do I consider them to be candidates for the cloth, but I must admit to being a follower of their aims (which is a United Ireland) even though I deplore some of the methods used by their associates and (perhaps) by them.

On the other hand, I doubt that the "Chingford Skinhead" is the right person to condemn not only Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams as "glorifiers of terrorism", but also the whole city of Derry, simpy because he and the totally inept Thatcher government were unable to get a clear grip of the situation in NI at the time.

MsG
 
#46
The Thatcher Government were elected by a lot more people than the gruesome twosome and they were not too inept over here,Loughgall,Carrickmore,Gibraltar,etc,and Lord Tebbit was an elected MP as well.Oh and I know who was in the pub in Carrickmore on the night Brighton was planned and I am sure Lord Tebbit knows as well.
 
#47
Bugsy7 said:
Dear gallowglass,

As always, you bring the voice of reason into what could be am argument that descends into senseless bickering. If you recall my words, I originally said that I, personally, have no rememberance of Martin McGuinness or Gerry Adams ever having "glorified terrorism". However, I've only listened to the both of them on about ten occasions at the most. And they were speaking in public.

What I object to, however, is the universal condemnation by implication to which they're continually subjected, inspite of the fact that they were elected by the people in democratic fashion. Not for one moment do I consider them to be candidates for the cloth, but I must admit to being a follower of their aims (which is a United Ireland) even though I deplore some of the methods used by their associates and (perhaps) by them.

On the other hand, I doubt that the "Chingford Skinhead" is the right person to condemn not only Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams as "glorifiers of terrorism", but also the whole city of Derry, simpy because he and the totally inept Thatcher government were unable to get a clear grip of the situation in NI at the time.

MsG
I accept - whilst finding it somewhat hard to believe - that you have not personally heard Adams or McGuiness 'glorifying terrorism'. However, I would add that you wouldn't have to search for long in order to find such evidence. Despite the fact that they were elected, they are recent converts to the democratic process, and it is hardly outrageous to point out their wholly cynical expolitation of their status as those with control of the PIRA's leash in order to nudge the Peace Process in the direction they desired. Despite their electoral mandate, their previous terrorist activities have not been retrospectively justified. It would be wrong to be blinded by the legitimate aim of a 'United Ireland' into somehow treating Adams, McGuiness and the PIRA as other than what they were and still are - terrorists (or quasi-democratic terrorists if one is feeling generous). Personally, I am to a great extent indifferent politcally as to the coming or not of a 'United Ireland ' - part of me would like to see it if it means that the national question is finally put to rest; equally, another part of me doesn't want to see this occur to Sinn Féin/PIRA's tune, which will turn the entire island into a SF/PIRA criminally-governed societal slag-heap. Also, I have Unionist blood on my mother's side of the family, and count Unionists among my friends, so I can understand that 'they' don't wish to be dragooned into a 'United Ireland' which would almost certainly disinherit them; when I take my thinking a step further, I foresee a possible mishandled unification resulting in civil war, or another 'Troubles'.

Bear in mind that Adams and McGuinness' aims go far beyond merely a 'United Ireland', and these aims should be of real concern to Irish people at present. I cannot applaud them because they have stopped murdering people - if anything they are more dangerous than before, because there is a greater chance of their aims becoming reality.
 
#48
Bugsy wrote:

but I must admit to being a follower of their aims (which is a United Ireland)
Bugsy, do you really think that is the be all, end all of their manifest/policy. They are a crupt political party, (OK I don't know what political party is not), but in their case they have their own private terrorism outfit backing their policies, and please do not say that PIRA have disbanded, because as we all know they still operate doing the things terrorists do. As for united Ireland, can I please ask why you support this idea, being from a foreign land, what interest do you have in Northern Ireland. The only way I can see the north joining the south is when the Shinners get back in the hole they imerged from and Nationalists and Unionists start getting on better and come to an agreement with the Southern Government, this I can't see happening for a long time.

Just to finish, alittle quote from Gerry

Armed struggle is a necessary and morally correct form of resistance in the six counties against a government whose presence is rejected by the vast majority of the Irish people".

"There is those who tells us that the British Government will not be removed by armed struggle. As has been said before, the history of Ireland and of British colonial involvement throughout the world tells us that they will not be moved by anything else".
Link here
 
#49
I find it deeply offensive that someone can come on a British Army Forum and openly support people who are responsible for the deaths of friends I have served with. So I will just ignore any IRA PR statements made by Bugsy. I suggest we just blank him to show our contempt.

God save the Queen !!
 
#50
Well said Rab C, the six counties has a name and people died to defend that. Northern Ireland, it's not that hard to say and the only united that should be talked about here should be a footie team.
 
#52
RABC said:
I find it deeply offensive that someone can come on a British Army Forum and openly support people who are responsible for the deaths of friends I have served with. So I will just ignore any IRA PR statements made by Bugsy. I suggest we just blank him to show our contempt.

God save the Queen !!
Just to make it clear, again, RABC, I do NOT support the IRA! I do support one of the aims of the IRA, which is a United Ireland. However, I also support the rule of law and if Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams are taken to court, given a fair trial and convicted of any offences, I will support that too.

I, too, lost very good friends in NI and also members of my immediate family, so I can well understand your sentiments, but to single out a few for the crimes of many is unproductive and tends to get in the way of any progress in NI. Let's just be thankful that there is some sort of peace process going on and hope that it continues.

MsG

P,S. The_Dragoon: My avatar is the coat-of-arms of Waterford, whence I come. :D :D :D
 
#53
One day Bugsy, one day, there might be a united Ireland if and only if it is the wish of the majority of the people of Northern Ireland and that is not going to be in our life time. I've worked with people holding your views Nationalists and Republicans but they, using either common sense or discretion kept their views to themselves. I am not denying you your opinion but surely you can see that the vast majority violently disagrees with you and you can only expect the vitriolic comments such as from Tricam. I agree with Tricam, you are being somewhat obtuse, you are either brave or stupid or a combination of both or you just could be a tosser. I think the answer is up to you.
 
#54
mistersoft said:
One day Bugsy, one day, there might be a united Ireland if and only if it is the wish of the majority of the people of Northern Ireland and that is not going to be in our life time. I've worked with people holding your views Nationalists and Republicans but they, using either common sense or discretion kept their views to themselves. I am not denying you your opinion but surely you can see that the vast majority violently disagrees with you and you can only expect the vitriolic comments such as from Tricam. I agree with Tricam, you are being somewhat obtuse, you are either brave or stupid or a combination of both or you just could be a tosser. I think the answer is up to you.
Confusion as I think Tricam's last post has been pulled but he/she disagreed with the views of Bugsy. Thought I was going mad, or madder.
 
#55
Bugsy7 said:
agoodgrouping said:
McGuinness boasted at being the first person to open fire on Bloody Sunday. Adams was nowhere near bus stations early on Bloody Friday....... They have never been convicted because they have ruled their communities by fear - anyone making a statement is slotted. Ask the McCartney sisters if anything has changed.
So Martin NcGuinness boasted at being the first person to open fire on Bloody Sunday? I hope you've got an official quote for that and not just a "Ah, c,mon, Bugsy, everybody knows that".

The same goes for Gerry Adams. Where's your proof? Put up of shut up!
agoodgrouping said:
If Ahern is keen to show solidarity with those who bank roll his country (EU & US) I assume he will extradite the three Chilean bomb teaching desperados currently residing in the Free State for trial ? Probably not, they can ive freely with Slab, Ferris and numerous others in total freedom.
If you do a search, you'll know why these three are not about to be deported to Chile. It's all about a little thing you'll hardly know anything of, but is called democracy.

Try buffing up on the subject! I'm sure it'll change your whole way of thinking, stronzo! :D :D :D

MsG
Re McGuiness: it is there so do your research & go read the transcipts to the Inquiry. That is why he wouldn't testify in the most expensive legal process in history (too busy to attend but never to busy to draw his Commons allowances)
Re Adams : Can't put up because noone would testify. Those affected, innocent men, women and little children of both religions died though.
Re Chilean 3: Do you REALLY think they were there on a language course ? Do you know their background - wise up you tart. Is the repeated use of advance mortar devices by FARC since their "holiday" a coincidence ? They were convicted, it was then overturned, and then subsequently overturned again. The Chilean warrant exists so if they have done nothing wrong why not return to clear their name ?
Re Democracy: It has been hard won by good people of all religions and political persuasions. It can be exploited by warped minds, I will never persuade you because you are part of the problem not the solution. I trust that when your son or relative conducts "anti-social behaviour" and your mates "Martin & Gerry"s thugs smash his limbs to pieces (check out Andytown or Shortstrand any night for invites) you will remember what democracy meants, like a rule of law agree by the community not terrorists.

I will not waste any more time on this thread with dicksplashes like you.
 
#58
mistersoft said:
mistersoft said:
One day Bugsy, one day, there might be a united Ireland if and only if it is the wish of the majority of the people of Northern Ireland and that is not going to be in our life time. I've worked with people holding your views Nationalists and Republicans but they, using either common sense or discretion kept their views to themselves. I am not denying you your opinion but surely you can see that the vast majority violently disagrees with you and you can only expect the vitriolic comments such as from Tricam. I agree with Tricam, you are being somewhat obtuse, you are either brave or stupid or a combination of both or you just could be a tosser. I think the answer is up to you.
Confusion as I think Tricam's last post has been pulled but he/she disagreed with the views of Bugsy. Thought I was going mad, or madder.
Apologies to the mod who had to delete my post and Bugsy. You see Bugsy - I should not have called you a tosser without explaining in my post what makes you a tosser. So now I'll explain it...

A few months ago we had a NI debate and you were coming out with lots of very dated stuff about NI policing. A few people who actually live there explained the current situation to you. So I could understand some of your views back then as you were a little ill informed. But on this thread you are simply being daft.

You started off with this....

And anyway, I can't say that I've ever heard Martin McGuinness or Gerry Adams speak out in favour of terrorism, but I suppose that depends on your point of view.
This could mean a couple of things... Perhaps you support the IRA and therefore don't view them as terrorists or perhaps you genuinely believe that SF and the IRA are not two sides of the one coin. At least if your view was either of these we could have some sort of debate. But is it either of these?? No, unfortunately you were playing word games...

You will notice that the operative word (or contraction in this case) is I've. So you're telling me, in all seriousness, that you know better than me what I've heard?
I've also never heard Tebbit speak out in favour of terrorism, but he might have for all I know.
What an utterly crap post. If you want to play wordgames then why don't you go do a crossword?

Tricam.
 
#59
Just to throw in a little 'aside' on the Londonderry / Derry name issue, if thats ok ?.........I overheard a conversation some years ago in a joint ops room between two blokes.......one, a UDR corporal (from NI) and the other a Royal Irish Rangers corporal (from Eire), went like this ;

RIR........'see there has been a bit of a night in Derry then'

UDR........'in this ops room, we call it Londonderry'

RIR........'why's that then'

UDR........'because we're in the UDR and we call it Londonderry'

RIR........'Well, I'm in the British Army, and I call it Derry'

Any comments ?
 
#60
Ah Bugsy

I haven,t gone away you know, now why does that sound familiar.

You will notice that the operative word (or contraction in this case) is I've. So you're telling me, in all seriousness, that you know better than me what I've heard?
I've also never heard Tebbit speak out in favour of terrorism, but he might have for all I know.

It's the perennial difficulty with communication: it's not what's said, but what's understood that causes the difficulties.
No problems in understanding, I think you produced a mong post and tried to cover it up. I never stated that I know better than you what youv'e heard, but found it unbelievable that you could come out with something so stupid, however having read the rest of your posts, I now believe it.

However I think Norman Tebbit (personally I don't think much of the man) has every right to say what he thinks, considering what those nice guys Gerry and Martin and Co, tried to do to him and his wife.

By the way are you into Holocaust denial as well.
 

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