TA recruiting cut back

#1
Heard this morning that there's talk of reducing RTC recruiting flows.

Reduced MTDs, future Army manning, reducing Operational pull, TA units to be cut back to 75% establishment, lack of trg places, reduction in MATTs standards etc to blame.

Am I alone?
 
#2
TA units to be cut back to 75% establishment

Does that mean that units that are short on bodies, but strong on sncos and officers, will be chopping posts while becoming fully manned :?

How does this compare with Lord Mandelson's promise of no chopping of the Defence budget.
 
#3
tiger stacker said:
TA units to be cut back to 75% establishment

Does that mean that units that are short on bodies, but strong on sncos and officers, will be chopping posts while becoming fully manned :?

How does this compare with Lord Mandelson's promise of no chopping of the Defence budget.
Most are capped at something over 80% anyway - it's just controlled wastage
 
#4
MrTracey said:
Heard this morning that there's talk of reducing RTC recruiting flows.

Reduced MTDs, future Army manning, reducing Operational pull, TA units to be cut back to 75% establishment, lack of trg places, reduction in MATTs standards etc to blame.

Am I alone?
No, but you soon will be. (Coat etc)

Thing is, "reducing operational pull" ? Ho ho ho. Unless we're going to pull out of AFG I can't see the regs suddenly getting fully manned or stopping soldiers fed up of back to back tours signing off. If my email box stops bringing me offers of gap years in a variety of places then I might be convinced otherwise. (Obligatory disclaimer, other cap badges may vary.)

Oh, and I can't wait for us to increase in size to 75% of the establishment.
 
F

fozzy

Guest
#5
One_of_the_strange said:
MrTracey said:
Heard this morning that there's talk of reducing RTC recruiting flows.

Reduced MTDs, future Army manning, reducing Operational pull, TA units to be cut back to 75% establishment, lack of trg places, reduction in MATTs standards etc to blame.

Am I alone?
No, but you soon will be. (Coat etc)

Thing is, "reducing operational pull" ? Ho ho ho. Unless we're going to pull out of AFG I can't see the regs suddenly getting fully manned or stopping soldiers fed up of back to back tours signing off. If my email box stops bringing me offers of gap years in a variety of places then I might be convinced otherwise. (Obligatory disclaimer, other cap badges may vary.)

Oh, and I can't wait for us to increase in size to 75% of the establishment.
Quite. This thread would suggest that even at 100% manning, there still be plenty of opportunities to serve "sausage side" and elsewhere:
http://www.arrse.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic/t=129909.html

I would suspect that many units would love to be at 75% manning.
 
#6
It wouldn't surprise me from what I've seen of the mild panic going on regarding budgets.

Moreover, the RTCs have been running hot for over 2 years now and cannot continue without either adjusting their tempo or being properly resourced.
 
#7
The RTC's are certainly running hot compounded by:

a)Certain units (all in Theatre Troops) not complying in any way with CRF's directive of providing visiting instructors. (Rumour has it that some CO's have even given specific orders not to support RTC's despite being major users of them.)

b)The good and compliant units (Infantry Bns) being under the MTD cosh.

c)A disconnected recruiting surge (credit crunch etc) without a similar increase of resources at RTCs

Means that the future for recruit training is not looking good..........

This is despite the "Man Training Day Calculator" (which is the tool provided by RF to determine unit budgets) providing additional MTDs for instructors on a ratio of 1 to 10 Recruits to support Recruit Training at RTC's.

So I wonder where Theatre Troops (especially signals) is spending the extra dosh?

Unless something is done to prioritise places at the RTC's to those units who do provide support then I think we are going to see more cancelled Recruit training weekends
 
#8
From my batt there has been MTD caps, all recruiters sacked plus all cadres binned from brigade, nice one ..... just to further increase the training difference between regs and TA.
 
F

fozzy

Guest
#9
tiggrsown said:
The RTC's are certainly running hot compounded by:

a)Certain units (all in Theatre Troops) not complying in any way with CRF's directive of providing visiting instructors. (Rumour has it that some CO's have even given specific orders not to support RTC's despite being major users of them.)

b)The good and compliant units (Infantry Bns) being under the MTD cosh.

c)A disconnected recruiting surge (credit crunch etc) without a similar increase of resources at RTCs

Means that the future for recruit training is not looking good..........

This is despite the "Man Training Day Calculator" (which is the tool provided by RF to determine unit budgets) providing additional MTDs for instructors on a ratio of 1 to 10 Recruits to support Recruit Training at RTC's.

So I wonder where Theatre Troops (especially signals) is spending the extra dosh?

Unless something is done to prioritise places at the RTC's to those units who do provide support then I think we are going to see more cancelled Recruit training weekends
Well considering that Theatre Troops comes under Commander Field Army, I suggest that Commander Regional Forces, takes it up with him.

BTW - There is no "extra dosh".
 
#10
As i understand it the snotagrams are already flying about - but until the transggressors feel some pain they just ignore it.

Re funds - Agreed - there is no extra dosh this year - but the units have always had it - they have just spent it on other things and continue to spend it on other things rather than Recruit Training allowing the Inf Bn's to take the load
 
#11
We've been round the provision of instructors buoy before (hello B_B !). If your unit doesn't have the instructors then no amount of sanctions will help. (*)

And then the system as a whole is not joined up. If a CO's main effort is warm bodies to ops then everything, including RTC support, gets cut to support it. Given the choice between a snottagram from the RTC for not providing instructors and one from their boss for not supporting Ops guess which one the CO will choose ? If the RTC support isn't on the COs objectives and OJAR then it will lose to things that are.

The RTCs can of course reduce their intakes from offending units, but then they face incoming from the relevant Directorate for jeoparding support to ops - after all, fewer recruits = fewer mobilised = failure to meet manning targets for operations.

And then there will be the units who will point out the huge inefficiencies at a unit level in the RTC concept (more admin, more travel, less flexibility, need to provide drivers etc) and ask to go back to doing it in house. It is no coincidence that one of the best performing units in this phase is 4 Para who do it themselves.

(*) In other news 3 and 5 MI are still welcoming transferees with open arms, MATTs qualified instructors particularly welcome.
 
#12
Hmmmm
I think we need to correct some myths here
The units I refer to
1) Do have the qualified instructors - cos they have been to the RTC to get thier qualifications
2) If they don't how does anybody do MATTs etc?
3) Most of them have UK roles (and lets not go down that thread again)
4) To support ops you need troops and therefore you need recruits - so every CO's ME has to include recruiting
5) RTC's were created because the non infantry were caught at not training recruits correctly (or in some cases at all)
6) To comply with Dhali/Blake, AGITI, ITG etc etc requirements etc would now nigh on kill a unit in staff work consuming enourmous amounts of MTDs

From what I hear this is not the RTC whining but rather people a lot lot further up the CoC to worry about the odd brigade complaining
I think certain units may have to change thier ways.....................................
 
H

Hedphelym

Guest
#13
My unit has been told that from October this year all recruiting will cease until April 2010. We have 6 people in our recruiting office - 3 sgts, 1 WO2, and 2 privates on ADC contracts. All of whom are now understandably preparing to get completley binned off.
 
#14
tiggrsown said:
Hmmmm
I think we need to correct some myths here
The units I refer to
1) Do have the qualified instructors - cos they have been to the RTC to get thier qualifications
2) If they don't how does anybody do MATTs etc?

3) Most of them have UK roles (and lets not go down that thread again)
4) To support ops you need troops and therefore you need recruits - so every CO's ME has to include recruiting
5) RTC's were created because the non infantry were caught at not training recruits correctly (or in some cases at all)
6) To comply with Dhali/Blake, AGITI, ITG etc etc requirements etc would now nigh on kill a unit in staff work consuming enourmous amounts of MTDs

From what I hear this is not the RTC whining but rather people a lot lot further up the CoC to worry about the odd brigade complaining
I think certain units may have to change thier ways.....................................
On those 2 points the instructors are at there units training there own unit. The units will still need trained soldiers to pass MATT,s. The limits on MTD's and cutbacks in weekends leading to less opportunities to qo qualify for bounty. I can think of 1650+ reasons why people dont want to go to the RTC's.
 
#15
saladdoger said:
tiggrsown said:
Hmmmm
I think we need to correct some myths here
The units I refer to
1) Do have the qualified instructors - cos they have been to the RTC to get thier qualifications
2) If they don't how does anybody do MATTs etc?

3) Most of them have UK roles (and lets not go down that thread again)
4) To support ops you need troops and therefore you need recruits - so every CO's ME has to include recruiting
5) RTC's were created because the non infantry were caught at not training recruits correctly (or in some cases at all)
6) To comply with Dhali/Blake, AGITI, ITG etc etc requirements etc would now nigh on kill a unit in staff work consuming enourmous amounts of MTDs

From what I hear this is not the RTC whining but rather people a lot lot further up the CoC to worry about the odd brigade complaining
I think certain units may have to change thier ways.....................................
On those 2 points the instructors are at there units training there own unit. The units will still need trained soldiers to pass MATT,s. The limits on MTD's and cutbacks in weekends leading to less opportunities to qo qualify for bounty. I can think of 1650+ reasons why people dont want to go to the RTC's.
It's another symptom of a fragmented training system. Going to the RTCs as an instructor is not a compellling proposition for your average instructor in my part of the world. You get left behind for promotion, see a significant hike in the commitment needed (time and travel) and hassle levels. As one of few instructors you're running round a lot anyway just getting MATTs out of the way. Plus you get out of date in terms of trade skills which after all was the big draw to get people to join in the first place. Yes it needs doing, we all know that but it's the TA, there's no pension trap, and coercion results in a gap in the orbat or a transfer.

Kudos though, to those who do go to the RTCs and go above and beyond in those posts.
 

The_Duke

LE
Moderator
#16
One_of_the_strange said:
And then there will be the units who will point out the huge inefficiencies at a unit level in the RTC concept (more admin, more travel, less flexibility, need to provide drivers etc) and ask to go back to doing it in house. It is no coincidence that one of the best performing units in this phase is 4 Para who do it themselves.

.
For anyone feeling enthused by the above comment, be careful what you wish for - it might just come true.

4 Para do all of their Ph 1 training in house, with phase 2 conducted by P Coy at ITC Catterick. To enable this to happen requires a huge amount of manpower and course qualifications. You need a team of at least 4 dedicated recruit instructors with ASLS, SAA, CBRN, MAPRIC, PTI, RMQ, CMCQ instructor quals per company location.

Each company must also do all of the training records and associated paperwork to the standards expected of an RTC.

It is a major manpower and andministrative burden, and should not be considered lightly.
 
#17
The_Duke said:
One_of_the_strange said:
And then there will be the units who will point out the huge inefficiencies at a unit level in the RTC concept (more admin, more travel, less flexibility, need to provide drivers etc) and ask to go back to doing it in house. It is no coincidence that one of the best performing units in this phase is 4 Para who do it themselves.

.
For anyone feeling enthused by the above comment, be careful what you wish for - it might just come true.

4 Para do all of their Ph 1 training in house, with phase 2 conducted by P Coy at ITC Catterick. To enable this to happen requires a huge amount of manpower and course qualifications. You need a team of at least 4 dedicated recruit instructors with ASLS, SAA, CBRN, MAPRIC, PTI, RMQ, CMCQ instructor quals per company location.

Each company must also do all of the training records and associated paperwork to the standards expected of an RTC.

It is a major manpower and andministrative burden, and should not be considered lightly.
which is why it was supposed to be centred on the RTCs with CIC as required at Catterick. One wonders why 4 Para were allowed to go outside of this (other than being bery important etc!!) - one rule?
 

The_Duke

LE
Moderator
#18
No. Put simply, the RTCs do not supply the product we need.

The fitness end state of the RTC and TA CIC process (10.30 PFT and a standard CFT) is nowhere near what we need for a trained soldier. We do not accept potential recruits with a RRR time of greater than 10 minutes, and are at CFT distance but 3 - 4 minutes per mile quicker than CFT pace by weekend 5 of Ph 1.

The RTCs were not able to offer additional fitness periods within the training programme which would have allowed us to achieve this within the RTC system, so we run our own training. If we had gone the RTC route, we would have to allow another 3 month build up post CIC to get the soldiers ready for P Coy, thus extending the training period even further.
 
#19
[quote="saladdogder] I can think of 1650+ reasons why people dont want to go to the RTC's.[/quote]

No you can't.

Do you really think RTC staff do not get a Bounty? ( hello OOTS! )

After those worthy Parachutist chaps, the TA Infantry unit that sends most blokes on Ops ( from 7 Rifles ) trains via the RTC.

The sanctions alluded to in the post by OOTS have not been put into place, but consider the reaction of the TM / CO of a unit who is told that their unit will have nil spaces available to them at the RTC for the next 18 months, for example...
 

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