TA Officer recruiting

[Countrylad]

Just a quick thought aren't they running a PO thing on the various summer challenges this year?

 

[Bond]

Might pay your powers that be to take a look at the Australian University Regiment model (Our rough version of your UOTC's)

Each University Regiment in each state is responsible for training Army Reserve (TA) Officers, and now they are taking on the responsibility of training NCO's and Soldier IET courses for all Reserve units within their particular state.

The Regiments are not restricted to University Students, and in fact students make up a minority of members (my Company for example was predominantly public servants, police officers and so forth)

The Army Reserve commissioning course takes about 18 months, and for a university student who joins the Army Reserve in their first year of study, can easily have earned their commission and be serving as an Officer before they graduate university. (In my case I earned my commission in my second year of study).

The Regiments are nationally coordinated through the Royal Military College Duntroon to largely mirror the Regular Army course taught at RMC-D.

On a side note, we had a wee young lass from Scotland come down to Australia on exchange with university. Being the good OTC member she was, she set up an exchange with her nearest Australian University Regiment, looking forward to her exciting time with the Australian drinking club. I think it might have been quite the shock for her to come to the realisation that she'd come to a full-on, intense, high-tempo uni dedicated to training reserve officers. Had her in my section on a couple of training weekends, she took it all on the chin and put in a lot of effort, even survived being attacked my an allegedly 'huge' Australian spider - I felt sorry and impressed by her at the same time.

 

[msr]

It is a shame that the Review of the Reserves does not seem to encompass the OTCs.

msr

 

[Praetorian]

It is a shame that the Review of the Reserves does not seem to encompass the OTCs.

msr

Its even more funny when some of them think that they're soldiers. They really don't like being told that they're class B only.

 

[Hardysa]

As for OTC's there's been talk about them changing their remit for a while now. It's very difficult to persuade TASOs or POs to move across to TA officer training with commitment when the OTC gets vast amounts of resources thrown at it in comparison -

Remember that these TASO's and PO's are university students whose priority should be to get the best degree they can manage.

Can you clarify what you mean by "TA Officer training with commitment"?

Is it that training in an OTC does not mean you may be working towards a Commission, surely as a TASO you are albeit to a different timetable?

By that I mean those who are ready to commit to being an officer either TA or Reg when their term with the OTC finishes. I've got no problem with people deciding 'it's not for me'; but I do find it annoying when those who want to move on and make a career out of it, full or part time, are considered the exception rather than the rule.

I fully accept your point that they might be in the position to want the best degree they can achieve whilst in the OTC; is this not a similar thing to wanting good promotion and career prospects while being in the TA? We all have to balance priorities.

 

[Hardysa]

Just a quick thought aren't they running a PO thing on the various summer challenges this year?

Yes, they're running 'Summer Leader' up at Grantham under the umbrella of 4 Div's Summer Challenge, roughly 3 weeks Mod 2 then Mod 3 afterwards.

 

[Ffyll]

I can confirm that TADEPO is still going on: I'm just about to start Mod1 with 'everyone' as my Sgt put it. I'll then do Mod 2 and 3 with Brigade and 4 at RMAS. I've passed TAB with a 2.3 for phys and now had to go to two Recruit Selection Weekends and then will go on a 15 day battle camp for Mod 1 in the Autumn. TADEPO seems to be the default route for TA officers for my regiment, I think we've got 16 at various stages.

I applied on January 5th. In my opinion, it has taken far too long and the process is full of holes. At one point I had 2 points of contact and two of them had by wrong address; and that was after being told by an automatic response that at aged 25 I was only eligible to be a cadet instructor due to age. Still, trying to get somewhere. I received no briefing from anyone before going to TAB! However, I realise that it isn't really the Army's job to administrate well, rather kill terrorists and I'd rather they concentrated on that!

In response to a point earlier: I think TA and Reg officers can be similar in nature. If I wasn't married I'd be a reg, but probably with the RN. There was no distinction at AOSB between TA and Regs, other than there were many more TA candidates (and IMHO they seemed a little older and more rounded individuals). I think however I would be very worried if I was called up to go into a hot zone and perform anything other than force patrol: my training over the next 2 years won't be anywhere near as comprehensive as the 44 weeks at RMAS.

 

[flowers]

I applied on January 5th. In my opinion, it has taken far too long and the process is full of holes. At one point I had 2 points of contact and two of them had by wrong address; and that was after being told by an automatic response that at aged 25 I was only eligible to be a cadet instructor due to age. Still, trying to get somewhere. I received no briefing from anyone before going to TAB! However, I realise that it isn't really the Army's job to administrate well, rather kill terrorists and I'd rather they concentrated on that!

Hey you're one of the lucky ones, having been trying to get in contact with a couple of units I have almost given up hope and enthusiasm to keep trying as no-one seems to want to pick up a phone or even respond to an email...

 

[Ffyll]

I applied on January 5th. In my opinion, it has taken far too long and the process is full of holes. At one point I had 2 points of contact and two of them had by wrong address; and that was after being told by an automatic response that at aged 25 I was only eligible to be a cadet instructor due to age. Still, trying to get somewhere. I received no briefing from anyone before going to TAB! However, I realise that it isn't really the Army's job to administrate well, rather kill terrorists and I'd rather they concentrated on that!

Hey you're one of the lucky ones, having been trying to get in contact with a couple of units I have almost given up hope and enthusiasm to keep trying as no-one seems to want to pick up a phone or even respond to an email...

In my experience, no one does emails or calls. Keep trying! Ring the numbers you have and chase your paperwork through the system!

 

[Wile-E-Coyote]

Just to try and tidy up some lose ends here....

DETAPO (Direct Entry T. A. Officer) training and recruitment is still happening. However the amount that actually pass with no prior military experience is very low.

The powers that be that thought up this very badly thought out idea should be collectively hit in the face with a wet fish until they come to their senses as it is just plain farcical.

1. DETAPO’s should do the 9 weekend ‘infantry’ (Mod 1) recruits course, a lot do not as their units do not tag them as PO’s until they finish the 6 weekend course. (But they joined as DETAPOs, but they get through the system quicker like this as there are fewer 9 weekend Mod 1 courses available) They then send them onto Mod 2 (where they are expected to know how to conduct a section attack) without a scooby on basic infantry skills.
2. There is not enough time in the syllabus to give them the basic experience of living in the field and operating as a soldier so to then get them to do that while trying to get them to lead is almost impossible.
3. A lot turn up with intentions of becoming the next CGS and when given a biff report from TAB they bin the TA as they only want to be an officer!!!

From being on the inside and seeing the crap that strolls through the door wanting to be an officer without even know what a soldier does is very worrying, as they could with a bit of effort pass Sandhurst and be sent to a unit and then shortly thereafter be mobilised (there is supposed to be a 2 year wait after completion of Sandhurst before they can mobilise but it is very easy to get round, you ‘volunteer’!) and the one Army concept really falls down as these officers have an extremely limited view of the Army and experience in doing anything soldier like.

Personally I believe that the DETAPO scheme should be binned and anyone who wants to be an officer (in the interview when joining why not make it a question if the candidate has the required education level) should become a PO and watched and do the soldier route of entry, enter a unit for a period of time then if they still want to commission, and the unit thinks they are good enough then they get sent onto Mod 2.

This is the way it happens for the majority of soldiers who pass Mod 4 (Sandhurst) and the basic reasons are simple, they have more experience so it becomes not easier, just more manageable.

 

[Ffyll]

That's a bit pessimistic. Reg Officer Cadets get even less army contact before beginning training (admittedly they get a much thorough programme!) so I'm not sure you can suggest that 'crap' that walks through the door is any crapper than anyone else at TAB or TAMB.

Would you consider comparing the reg route in for an officer? Why don't you also insist that reg officers do a year as a private before going forward?

 

[thegreyman]

How is the officer recruitment issue handled within the RNR/RMR/RauxAF? Are they short of YO to the same extent as the TA?

 

[Hardysa]

Personally I believe that the DETAPO scheme should be binned

This seems vaguely familiar to the posts made a few years back when the scheme started; I'd rather hoped that these arguments had been countered and we'd moved on since then.

I strongly suggest you take the time and bother to talk to those JO's who have come through the DETAPO system and tell them they are wasting their time as they're not good enough - see what kind of response you get.

 

[Wile-E-Coyote]

That's a bit pessimistic. Reg Officer Cadets get even less army contact before beginning training (admittedly they get a much thorough programme!) so I'm not sure you can suggest that 'crap' that walks through the door is any crapper than anyone else at TAB or TAMB.

Would you consider comparing the reg route in for an officer? Why don't you also insist that reg officers do a year as a private before going forward?

Sorry if it is pessimistic, but remember Reg OCdts get a year at the factory, TA ones get 3 weeks!

They are on an accelerated and condensed timetable as it is without the added problem of being totally inexperienced.

This seems vaguely familiar to the posts made a few years back when the scheme started; I'd rather hoped that these arguments had been countered and we'd moved on since then.

I strongly suggest you take the time and bother to talk to those JO's who have come through the DETAPO system and tell them they are wasting their time as they're not good enough - see what kind of response you get.

Who said they were not good enough????

They are the few who have made it through the system, and therefore by Darwinian rules are ‘good enough’. My points are that there are so few of them to make it a worthwhile venture and it causes many who would make good officers with just a little more experience fail. And 90% of the failures then leave the TA.

If the DETAPO scheme was extended, including time at a unit then the pass rate would increase.

And thanks for the suggestion, I had never thought of doing that. Could you also suggest how I could suck an egg???

As I said in my first post, I’m on the inside watching this happen, not the outside moaning.

A lot of the crap that does come in come does so with inflated visions of their own self worth, and truly believe that they are Von Clausewitz reincarnated. They take up so much time and resources that if they all had to go through a unit and soldier training first they would never be passed on for Officer Training, or would have had enough experience by then to do better than a 2.2 at TAB!

The DETAPO was a badly thought out knee jerk reaction to a shortage of TA Officers, and in my humble opinion has done absolutely fek all in alleviating it. The fact that units are sending through more PO’s is the factor that is raising the amount of TA Officers and in my view the only way of doing it as it does not throw too much, to fast, too hard at the OCdts.

If you want hard and fast data why not do a FOI request for TA Officer passout figures from say 2006 to present, detailing if TAPO or DETAPO.

Sandhurst has the figures, I saw them on my last visit there a few months ago, they know it doesn’t work, the CO’s of the RTC’s know it doesn’t work, and have been quietly pushing to bin the scheme.

 

[Nutter]

I remember when i joined i tried to go for the detapo route, however i was told they didnt do detapo. Instead they wanted me to do the soldier route, so i did. After 3 years i asked again and got toldthey wanted me to do PJNCO, and at least 1 tour.

This proberbly explains why in the company, in the entire time, whilst I was there I only ever saw one new officer come in.

 

[Jagythistle]

As for OTC's there's been talk about them changing their remit for a while now. It's very difficult to persuade TASOs or POs to move across to TA officer training with commitment when the OTC gets vast amounts of resources thrown at it in comparison -

Remember that these TASO's and PO's are university students whose priority should be to get the best degree they can manage.

Can you clarify what you mean by "TA Officer training with commitment"?

Is it that training in an OTC does not mean you may be working towards a Commission, surely as a TASO you are albeit to a different timetable?

By that I mean those who are ready to commit to being an officer either TA or Reg when their term with the OTC finishes. I've got no problem with people deciding 'it's not for me'; but I do find it annoying when those who want to move on and make a career out of it, full or part time, are considered the exception rather than the rule.

I fully accept your point that they might be in the position to want the best degree they can achieve whilst in the OTC; is this not a similar thing to wanting good promotion and career prospects while being in the TA? We all have to balance priorities.

and indeed they will remain in the minority until the role of the OTC is changed as getting comissioned Officers into either the Regulars and TA has always been a by product rather than the main effort. While some OTC's are taking steps to address this until the mission is officially changed there's unlikely to be a massive increase in output of Officers.

It is about balancing priorities, but I don't think its the same, putting my neck out here as I'm not a graduate myself I don't think being at University is the same as being in employment (at least its sifficiently different to effect the decision making process).

I also think part of the problem is the fact they are called "OTC's" when really they aren't I wonder if we would get the same incessant whining about them (not from you btw!!) if they were called something more appropriate to their current mission.

 

[Ffyll]

You seem to be rather disdainful of the TAB - have you ever been?

 

[Praetorian]

Flowers my sweet, just rock up at the unit, easiest way!

 

[roverkill]

Had her in my section on a couple of training weekends, she took it all on the chin.

nice.

 

[Wingletang]

On a side note, we had a wee young lass from Scotland come down to Australia on exchange with university. Being the good OTC member she was, she set up an exchange with her nearest Australian University Regiment, looking forward to her exciting time with the Australian drinking club. I think it might have been quite the shock for her to come to the realisation that she'd come to a full-on, intense, high-tempo uni dedicated to training reserve officers. Had her in my section on a couple of training weekends, she took it all on the chin and put in a lot of effort, even survived being attacked my an allegedly 'huge' Australian spider - I felt sorry and impressed by her at the same time.

Not just a little patronising?