TA Infantry -a model for All Arms soldier skills training.

Discussion in 'The Training Wing' started by BuggerAll, Jan 13, 2006.

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  1. BuggerAll

    BuggerAll LE Reviewer Book Reviewer

    There is an other thread which is decrying the lack of soldier (infanry skills if you want) training in the RMP in the light of the 6 men murdered in Iraq.

    I tend to agree that the RMP lack soldier training for a variety of good reasons, the same is also true of loggies and medics (and probably the rest of the non-teeth arms).

    Part of the problem is that they don't even know that there is a problem. There seems to be a view that if they can do thier ATDs then that soldiering wrapped up.

    My solution would be that every one in the Regualr Army who is not in the Inf should do the same training as the TA inf. NCOs going for promotion should also have to pass the Short (ie TA) Junior and Senior Brecon and every unit would have to do an at least a 2 week annual camp run by the inf as well as at least 15 days collective trg spread through out the year.

    It is inportant that this training (at least in the initial phase) is run by the infantry - otherwise you just get the blind leading the blind. I would suggest sending an infantry rep to each minor AA unit, but I know this would not be practical becasue we don't have enougn Inf anyway, and such a person would get bored and frustrated and shat on.

    Discuss...
     
  2. Not a bad idea - very worth looking at.
     
  3. What about the TA non-teeth arms? Do they need Inf training as well? Not knocking the idea, which I think is good, just curious. I always thought it was Soldier first, trade second. I naively assumed the Soldier bit would include a rough grounding in Inf skills
     
  4. This is already in place, in part, and know as the 'infantry glue' at most Ph1 and Ph2 trg establishments, where infantrymen are engaged in teaching and instructing non-teeth arms recruits because the necessary skills do not exist amongst E1 instructors. It also takes place in support of training for ops for some units prior to ops - infantry bns running LFTT for non-teeth arms units.

    The downside is that there isn't enough infantry to do it. Commendable idea but sadly lacking the manpower to run it.
     
  5. When I did my mortar course at Netheravon, we had one of the SASC instructors on the course with us. He was Brunei bound and needed to know the basics of the weapon. The SASC reckoned then that the TA course was a good way to train him.
     
  6. Well i am Ex TA Infantry after doing 10 years being looked over for promotion due to sdr & having to wait many moons for it afterwards but after finally getting i noticed that in the infantry the training, was by many tunnel visioned as to the normal things so all we really did was section attack after section attack but the training never really changed.

    I have now transferred into the Royal Signals & its proably the best move i have made i am known as a course mosnter cause i am not afraid to get cuase qualified, & i seem to get used in that aspect as training instructor, this weekend just passed we was away with out regiment on a fibua training package & the noticable thing to most people was that there was 7 lessons being taught all the rest was by senior instructors where as i was the only L/Cpl/ JNCO to teach.

    And some of the biggest things that noticed from some of more of the junir troops was that they think they dont have to do infantry stuff, my lesson was the section room & house clrearing drills during the lesson one part was fighting up or down via mouse holes so i showed that some body may have to amke there way through a mouse hole to clear down as the stairs may not be accessable but to my surprise a potential officer had the nerve to say i aint doing that, ( is this the new mentallity i have been groomed to say dont expect people to do what you wont yourself) i wont drop through a mouse hole, its only for operations or for infantry & special forces, & with many other comments come accross if we are doing this the sh** has hit the fan. I find this quite difficult to understand has during Op Telic 2 i was based at basra palace & spent my time as part of 19 mech bde HQ in there NBC CELL but no need for me out there, so i stagged on the gate. while the infantry did the tours stags etc the Signals was out on patrol & with a good number of additons to the troops coming from TA its now time to take this point forward you get my vote
     
  7. BuggerAll

    BuggerAll LE Reviewer Book Reviewer

    I completly agree with your point about non-inf TA needing to get thier soldier skills up to speed. I've been banging on about it for years (in the RMP and in the AMS - problem is they don't understand what I'm talking about.

    I know that there is some inf trg for recruits, but what I'm suggesting is that it should be ongoing through out thier carreers.
     
  8. Sknn is partly wrong when he says

    'the problem is that they don't even know that there is a problem. There seems to be a view that if they can do their ATDs then thats soldiering wrapped up.'
    2 points:
    Unfortunately we do recognise the problem and attempt to rectify the skills shortage where possible either using Ex Inf transferred to RMP or using the local Inf Bn, who generally jump at the chance to rag some monkeys! but seriously whenever we ask theu always provide (in my experience) as they do recognise we lack the skills weaponry and more importantly the mind set sometimes. Also they realise that once deployed an RMP callsign may be attached to them on patrols and they dont want a liability in their ranks. But this is an adhoc basis and not written into RMP doctrine.

    2nd point

    ITDs are only the basics and dont cover the multitude of skills needed. RMP struggle to get these done each year let alone having to do Sect Battle drills or even sect / Pl in defence trg which is more what we need.

    sadly this has all been staffed up the chain of command from TELIC 1 onwards. I know it was definately done for TELIC 2 and there has been no change. Indeed if you read the BOI for MAK then the summary is that RMP dont need GPMG or extra Trg. Which is so not true. I thought things would change when we lost HJ and his sect but no! but hey at least the pay has got better......
     
  9. 1) I hope the Adjt saw this episode with the PO and he has been suitably "debriefed" and perhaps adjusted for a career in the retail industry.

    2) I was a TA Augmentee on TELIC2 to the Bde Sig Sqn and yes we did standing patrols, baseplate patrols, recce patrols etc. In my somewhat limited knowledge and experience, its obvious that there is no such thing as a linear battlefield in the sort of Operations we conduct today.
     
  10. Cutaway

    Cutaway LE Reviewer

    Apart from anything else Watto, I hope you dropped that tw@t of a Pot Offr.
    I mean I hope you took him for a walk behind the bldg and explained that as a leader he was expected to do these things.
     
  11. Removed by common consent
     
  12. Really....

    Well done for the post i do believe when we NON INF types read it there may well be more of us discussing this.

    Being in the Artillery i work quite closely with INF BGs within a Forward Observation Party. So in part, keeping up our particular Basic Inf Skills is not so much a problem. However there are measures in place that assist Non Inf units with their basic soldiering skills.

    The first part of this is through ITDS. You could say ITDS are bollocks but if ran properly they can be a good source of revision.

    Units are allocated non trade related time to exercise and train soldiers throughout the training year. CO's actively encourage all sub unit commanders to use this time effectively. An example is our CO is taking all our Regiments TAC Groups (4) to Otterburn to conduct Field Firing and Basic Soldiering skills, please bear in mind for this example 2 out of the 4 TAC Groups are Warrior Bourne and support Tank Regiments and the remaining to support Saxon and Scimitar equipped Inf and Recce units. A point to note though, not all units will be able to do this due to Operations, Commitments etc.

    Prior to deployment on Operations the standard OPTAG package is well prepared and well recieved throughout Non Inf Units. Many of my young Toms absolutely loved the change of role, abeilt Peace Support not Inf.

    What you need to realise is NON INF Units are just as busy as the Infantry, to point out and educate i will qoute my unit.

    What you are saying i.e

    My solution would be that every one in the Regualr Army who is not in the Inf should do the same training as the TA inf. NCOs going for promotion should also have to pass the Short (ie TA) Junior and Senior Brecon and every unit would have to do an at least a 2 week annual camp run by the inf as well as at least 15 days collective trg spread through out the year.

    Actually happens just not to the same extent. Our recruits conduct Basic Infantry skills at phase 1. the same as Infanteers. Infanteers then may move if not already there to catterick to conduct there Trade training i.e the CMBT INF CSE. Our recruits must also start there trades i.e Gnr Comd Systems or Gnr AS90 or Gnr Light Gun etc.

    All Potential JNCO's even as the progress up must complete a JNCO Cadre, but they must also be trade qualified as well. Inf training is present on cadre's and forms part of some of the summative testing periods. What you have to understand is though it is not possible at this stage for said Non Inf JNCO to have the same Inf soldiering skills as his opposite number.

    One 2 week camp run by the INF per year for non Inf Units, Questions,

    When will it be fitted into the schedule?
    What if said unit is deployed?
    what if said unit is already converting to a new piece of kit,
    Where will the manpower and correctly trained soldiers from the INF come from given the Infs current commitments?

    In short that sort of happens anyway, if you think about it. My unit has deployed to Iraq then 6 months later Cyprus. In just over another year we will head out to sunnier climates again. Other units including the Inf have had it worser still. Pre deployment training and the actual deployment takes you out of your trade and revitalises your Basic soldiering skills. Given the current climate is this going to change, i think not.

    To start a thread with this drivel,

    I tend to agree that the RMP lack soldier training for a variety of good reasons, the same is also true of loggies and medics (and probably the rest of the non-teeth arms).

    Smacks of ignorance of the facts of which YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO PREACH.

    Said incident was tragic and not due to soldiering skills, and for you to berate the RMP and the rest of the Non teeth arms smells of pure ignorance.

    I have a question for you.

    Should the REME hold a 2 week camp to assist your soldiers in the correct maintenance of vehicles?

    Should the Medics hold a 2 week camp to assist your soldiers in the correct way to do first aid?

    I think not.

    Whats needed here, just for you, is for you to get off your high horse and your narrow minded **** views of how every body should be as good as you at your job.

    If units could achieve more Inf training we all would but the reality is at present it is not possible. You need to have faith in the system that us non teeth arms can be spewed out ready for deployments and Ops at the right level.

    Have a bit of faith Pal.

    Need any more, then PM away
     
  13. BuggerAll

    BuggerAll LE Reviewer Book Reviewer

    I am not berating the non teeth arms. I am not critising individuals in them. I am suggesting that there is a training gap when it comes to soldier skills, and I was suggesting a possible model for dealing with this.

    Most of the other posters seemed to agree more or less, but suggested that I'm behind the curve as far as RMP is concerned as they are addressing the issue.

    My post was supposed to be positive and address issues that have been raised on other threads.
     
  14. Though the RMP's Who died several of them were ex Inf Gren Guards? Why did they not take the lead??
     
  15. A possible model to enable us to keep up our soldiering skills?

    Have you read my post? It does and is happening now.

    Part of the problem is low level basic soldiering skills are allowed within units to be bypassed, examples are, Patrol skills, Field Firing Skills, personal administration the list is endless. This could be due to trade commitments, courses, etc.

    People need to face facts though, it will only be achieved by certain individuals in command within Non Teeth Arm units taking charge of the situation and taking steps to ensure basic soldiering skills are kept up and included within exercises. Those in command should within there own units ensure JNCO's are kept abreast in basic soldiering skills and actually allow them to get out with their blokes.

    Finally soldiers should take pride in knowing that they have the skills to live and fight in arduous conditions in what ever climate. But then if your a signaller stuck on a rebro, or a Loggie driving a truck or even a mechanic at 2nd line you can see how the basics sometimes take 2nd place especially when they are dealing with the multitude of new kit and equipment that is within their own Corps and Regiments.

    Yeah you could say well what we need to do is allocate this many days to do this and get the Inf to teach that but that is impossible as they dont have the manpower FACT.
    And if you believe they have then you are well and truly behind the curve.

    It seems to me and yes it is my opinion you are basing your opinion on a tragic event upon Non Teeth Arm soldiering skills. I beg to differ massively and i suggest you read the facts of that event.

    As you have, i also have a opinion. That is the beauty or ARRSE.