TA far less professional?

#1
Hello all, I have now officially applied to the TA and will hopefully be starting my training soon.
I spoke to an ex sgt in queens div regs and he claims the TA are 'Undertrained cannonfodder' simply there to distract the enemy from the regs.
I know the TA probably aren't trained to the same standard as the Regs, and he is probably just being arrogant because he was in the regs and considers himself above the TA, but is this the general attitude of the Regs towards TA, and is there ANY truth in it at all?

Cheers
 
#4
jim i was gonna put on the end, this is honestly not a windup, lol..check my post history.

Just curious as to whether it's actually the general opinion of the regs..Also, with only 7 weeks training + 2 Weeks at ITCC, how do they prepare soldiers to tours and get them up to the standards of the regs?
 
#5
kentuk20 said:
jim i was gonna put on the end, this is honestly not a windup, lol..check my post history.

Just curious as to whether it's actually the general opinion of the regs..Also, with only 7 weeks training + 2 Weeks at ITCC, how do they prepare soldiers to tours and get them up to the standards of the regs?
By beasting their arrses to fcuk 'full time' before deployment!
 
#6
It rather depends on how "ex" this Sgt is.

Harping back to the era of the Cold War, that, more or less, was the perceived plan.

Soviet forces build up on the border, the TA are mobilised and sent immediately to their wartime locations. At the same time, many of the Regulars in Germany would be re-grouped in UK and reinforced with elements from elsewhere before being sent back to Germany.

You have to bear in mind that the Regulars in Germany would not have been at full strength due to courses, leave and attachment elsewhere, whereas the TA could be on a flight to Germany within 24 hours. (No OPTAG in those days).

The idea at the time was that if the Soviet forces could be delayed sufficiently that the journey to the Channel would take more than three days, both sides would have expended most of their conventional ammunition. This would lead to a nuclear stand-off and the hope that common sense would prevail.

Obviously, considering the massive forces that the Soviet Army would have sent across, there would have been little hope of survival for the troops at the front - hence the impression that the TA were cannon fodder (allowing our Regular counterparts to save the day, much like the US 5th Cavalry in films).


Refer to The Third World War by General Sir John Hackett
 
#8
putteesinmyhands said:
It rather depends on how "ex" this Sgt is.

Harping back to the era of the Cold War, that, more or less, was the perceived plan.

Soviet forces build up on the border, the TA are mobilised and sent immediately to their wartime locations. At the same time, many of the Regulars in Germany would be re-grouped in UK and reinforced with elements from elsewhere before being sent back to Germany.

You have to bear in mind that the Regulars in Germany would not have been at full strength due to courses, leave and attachment elsewhere, whereas the TA could be on a flight to Germany within 24 hours. (No OPTAG in those days).


The idea at the time was that if the Soviet forces could be delayed sufficiently that the journey to the Channel would take more than three days, both sides would have expended most of their conventional ammunition. This would lead to a nuclear stand-off and the hope that common sense would prevail.

Obviously, considering the massive forces that the Soviet Army would have sent across, there would have been little hope of survival for the troops at the front - hence the impression that the TA were cannon fodder (allowing our Regular counterparts to save the day, much like the US 5th Cavalry in films).


Refer to The Third World War by General Sir John Hackett
are you seriously writing this?
 
#9
CRmeansCeilingReached said:
are you seriously writing this?
Yes - and it was exercised during Ex Spearpoint in 1976, though we managed to hold back the invading forces so well that it took them 2 weeks to reach Paderborn. :) Ex Crusader in 1980 was fairly similar.
 
#10
"The TA could be on a flight within 24 hours"!?!??!? whereas the guys on leave, courses etc who knew what they were doing would be impossible to track down :)
 
#11
CRmeansCeilingReached said:
"The TA could be on a flight within 24 hours"!?!??!? whereas the guys on leave, courses etc who knew what they were doing would be impossible to track down :)
TA: Aside from a few blokes who would have been on holiday, everybody else could have been dragged from work, issued webbing and ready to leave the TAC within about 4 hours. The hold-ups would have been arranging flights - civvy airports would have been commandeered, so the nearest to the TAC would be used.

Regular: Although many units were present in Germany as part of the NATO commitment, quite a number of people would have been missing - a battalion may have sent an entire Coy to BATUS, for instance. Further personnel would be needed to shepherd dependents out of the country.

It would take longer to fill the holes in the Regular units than it would to deploy complete TA units. IIRC, much of the more modern kit (for which the Regulars were trained, but the TA wasn't) was held in UK/Holland rather than in Germany to lessen the possibility of it being overrun before being deployed.

I also resent your inference that the Regulars knew what they were doing, but the TA didn't. The TA trained solely to fight on the North German Plain and would have been overrun with just as much difficulty as the Regulars. (Had they been called on to fight in Norway, the jungle or the desert, now that would have been a different story).
 
#13
putteesinmyhands said:
It rather depends on how "ex" this Sgt is.

Harping back to the era of the Cold War, that, more or less, was the perceived plan.

Soviet forces build up on the border, the TA are mobilised and sent immediately to their wartime locations. Obviously, considering the massive forces that the Soviet Army would have sent across, there would have been little hope of survival for the troops at the front - hence the impression that the TA were cannon fodder (allowing our Regular counterparts to save the day, much like the US 5th Cavalry in films).
The general survivability bit is probably true but not any insinuation that the TA were not trained - for their limited role. We knew our deployment area every bit as well as the Regs - we spent two weeks every other year dug into the place. We also spent far longer in the one role. Not uncommon to find guys in Mortar/Milan who had 15 years experience in the same platoon. OK, we were not as capable as the Regulars but we were still pretty good at our job - and still had time for a good pssi up.
 
#14
putteesinmyhands said:
CRmeansCeilingReached said:
are you seriously writing this?
Yes - and it was exercised during Ex Spearpoint in 1976, though we managed to hold back the invading forces so well that it took them 2 weeks to reach Paderborn. :) Ex Crusader in 1980 was fairly similar.
Yep. Lionheart in '84 doing Orange Forces. Heliborne assaults on river crossings. One position we took the umpire timed it as 1 min 15 seconds from hearing the helis to last position taken. My Pln had three trenches to take out. All three were facing the wrong way, not one was capable of engaging us as we assaulted through some scrubby trees, no depth, no interlocking arcs. Unhappy regular inf, bested by 2 Shock Wessex.

( OK, we rather spoilt it a few hours later by shooting up the lead vehicles of the advancing friendly forces but .....)
 
#15
Trossachs said:
putteesinmyhands said:
CRmeansCeilingReached said:
are you seriously writing this?
Yes - and it was exercised during Ex Spearpoint in 1976, though we managed to hold back the invading forces so well that it took them 2 weeks to reach Paderborn. :) Ex Crusader in 1980 was fairly similar.
Yep. Lionheart in '84 doing Orange Forces. Heliborne assaults on river crossings.
Not just there - see "2/51 HIGHLAND take on the 101st Airborne" on the same exercise. The Americans flew all the way from CONUS to drop onto a DZ covered by a TA inf Bn, who promptly reacted to the, errr, target-rich environment.
 
#16
Grandad, will you tell me what you did in the cold war??? :lol: :lol:

but seriously, I'm bored with all these stories of dusty places, we need more stories from the old and bold about the muddy windswept weeks spent preparing to fight back the russian hordes.

Humph [pulling up a rather damp sandbag and waiting for a swinging tiller lamp]
 
#17
Trossachs said:
putteesinmyhands said:
Unhappy regular inf, bested by 2 Shock Wessex.
Ah, there's the problem, no Wessex Shock Army anymore.

This is the heart of the problem IMHO, no real unit and formation level training anymore. Frustrating for the infantry, I'd imgaine bloody infuriating for everyone else!
 
#18
Gravelbelly said:
...Not just there - see "2/51 HIGHLAND take on the 101st Airborne" on the same exercise. The Americans flew all the way from CONUS to drop onto a DZ covered by a TA inf Bn, who promptly reacted to the, errr, target-rich environment.
That was a good 'un. I will remind the then CO when I see him soon. ;)
 
#19
Well, if you insist...

Crusader 1980.

1 Yorks (V, that is) had the job of defending a bridge across the Weser and yours truly was the MFC in the area. For some strange reason, my OP was in a windowless cellar in a Gasthaus. The view was lousy, but it had the advantage of regular home-cooked food and plenty of beer, all free (it pays to make friends with the locals). Across the river was a large open field, one of three potential heliborne LZs in the area. Of the blue forces, only a Conbat and a defending section were on the far side of the bridge.

Cue the sound of approaching helicopters. Puttees rushes out of the cellar with his A41 and other MFCing peripherals, runs to the edge of town and settles down to watch the assault by the Orange (US) heliborne troops. As they pass two of the potential LZs, Puttees calls down a Fire Mission on the field, dolly mixing HE and WP. The timing was excellent, with the first helicopter settling just as the first rounds impacted. Switch to HE and increase the rate, walking the fire across the field.

The Orange forces (obviously unimpeded by the theoretical fire) surge forward to the end of the bridge, where they are halted by a nice man with a white armband. After a bit of a discussion, they slink back to their chariots and disappear into the blue.

Turning around, I find that there is another nice man with a white armband behind me. Evidently he has been listening to me speaking into the radio. "Well done," he says, "I'm reporting that as the enemy force substantially destroyed by mortar fire. The dozen that survived that were wiped out by the section at the end of the bridge. Blue casualties, two wounded."

I was well chuffed. Especially as I had not been in contact with the Mortar Line for the previous 48 hours and had been talking to myself on the radio throughout the attack. I was to find out later that the Mortar Section had been captured - evidently the umpire at that location was not in contact with the umpire at mine!
 
#20
Perhaps it's worth considering that ARABS make shiite part time civies (i.e. when off duty in no military clothing with mates/wife/girlfriend etc) when forced to mingle with the great civie unwashed and seem to be proud of that fact!
 

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