Swinging the Lead?

Discussion in 'Shooting, Hunting and Fishing' started by HE117, Oct 8, 2012.

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  1. Just watched another punt on the Telly to ban lead in shooting..

    Now don't get me wrong.. I do support the ban on lead for shooting over flight ponds where birds can pick up lead in their gizzards, however this does not seem to be the issue here..

    RSPB et al are calling for a complete ban because "birds are still being found with lead in their system.."

    I get really hacked off with this.

    1. The "Lead Poisioning" thing, including the use of the "contamination" word is overplaying the issue.. Lead is only poisonous in solution, it is not an issue in the vast majority of cases. Metallic lead on dry land and on ranges is not seen as a problem provided the back stop is properly designed. Only in cases where metallic dust is being produced is there a problem, which is now understood and easily mitigated. There is a clear attempth to link this issue with the leaded petrol thing, which is not scientifically sustainable..

    2. The lead poisoning in birds is a specific issue of aquatic birds picking up shot in their gizzards where it gets ground down and enters their system. The shooting community, once it became aware of the problem, reacted quickly and switched to lead free shot for the limited areas where it was a problem. There is a lot of lead remaining in the flight ponds however, and unless these are dredged, the problem will remain..

    The main source of the bird problem appears to come from a limited number of flight ponds which have been shot over for over a centuary, mostly in North America. The examples that are being quoted are nearly all from migratory species which have very tight flocking and annual feeding patterns..

    I see no point in banning lead wholesale.. it would make no appreciable difference and cost a huge amount of money, and cause huge technical problems. This is yet another example of an over funded, narrow interest group scoring political points, because they can, and it makes it look like they are doing something, which they are not...!

  2. HE,

    Totally agree with your points in principle, however there are clowns out there still using lead where / when they shouldn't be i.e. driven duck as part of a driven game day (a subject in itself that I'm not going to get started on, as I can feel my blood pressure rising just thinking about it).

    There are obviously ********* within the wildfowling community also, as I still find recently fired cases from lead shot shells on the foreshore (in situ - not floated there by the tide).

    Until everybody gets "on message" and uses the appropriate ammunition in the appropriate (legal) scenario, then the shooting community itself is shooting itself in the foot / giving antis all the ammo they need (add any other shooting related idiom as required).

    Personally, I switched to non-toxic for wildfowling when the law came in and haven't noticed any discernable difference in results, apart from my pocket of course when buying shells.

  3. The switch to non toxic for wildfowling is/was the right thing to do, however let's keep things in perspective.. It is largely a legacy problem and will only be really solved by cleaning out or sealing the flight ponds. The lead itself is not the problem, it is the birds scooping it up with the gravel that is causing the problem.

    The correct solution, i.e switch to non-tox has been taken, and it must be allowed to work through. I do not believe there is that much non compliance. Compared to the past, the number of wildfowlers shooting over wetland has dropped significantly.. In victorian times this was a professional activity...

    What I don't want to see is a blanket ban. Using non tox in heritage firearms is not sensible, and it does no recordable damage if done properly..
  4. As a non-shooter, I think you fail to see the big picture; you are part of the huntin' and shootin' brigade, and consequently evil bastards who should be stopped whenever possible. Once the principle of lead free shot is established, it can be made a legal requirement. Then the game can move up a notch and polystyrene will be acceptable, with artificial targets for closers. You can't put up much of a counter argument, as clay shooting is already here.

    I don't include the fishing types, as they have a tendency to drop the anti-fishing protesters in the canal. Plus fishing is a working class sport, and much cheaper than shootin' or huntin'. Honest.

    The socialists have done huntin' over, you're next, thin edge of the wedge.
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Oh I do think I get the "Big Picture"...

    However I suspect the picture is much less "big" than many suppose..

    The science simply does not support the demands of the "anties", even less that the claims of the global warmers or even the smokers..

    Lead is a problem in a limited number of very special cases, which are now well understood and are being dealt with.. Lead pipes in certain districts where there was a leaching problem (easily solved by a simple addative) and ingestion of shot in certain bird species..

    The problem is the power of a small number of unelected special interest groups such as the RSPB and RSPA who have been bankrolled by several generations of little old ladies giving away the nation's capital and are now FAR too big for their boots..
    • Like Like x 1
  6. I have to agree with HE117 on this. We have a situation where an animal charity, in this case the RSPB demanding a change through law where none is needed. As those who live in the West of Scotland know, this has become the norm. These charities inform us that they speak for the majority, but the majority of what?

    As I have mentioned in a previous post on this subject, I have over the years despatched a great number of wildfowl, most of whose guts I have routinely investigated. I accept that lead being soft could be ground down reasonably quickly in a birds gizzard or guts but in all the years I have done this I have never, ever found lead shot. I have on the other hand found not inconsiderable quantities of plastic; much of it in 'pelletised' form.

    It could also be argued that if a bird ingests a lethal dose of lead the bird would become unable to fly quite quickly due to the way lead affects the nervous system. The bird then dies and the shot, especially if ground down is then beyond use by most other birds. This then takes the shot out of the equation. Of course the antis would argue that the lead is still in the ecosystem, however that is precisely where it started out from! Also, as is being discovered some of the lead alternatives are actually more damaging to the environment than lead is.

    To many people the whole argument is something that the RSPB and their ilk have whipped up knowing full well that the average person on the street thinks of lead as being as toxic as uranium and have absolutely no scientific knowledge of what happens when it is left in wet or dry soil.

    Interestingly enough the RSPB and SNH have, without consulting those who are directly affected released the sea eagle into Scotland. This bird does more damage to wildfowl than lead shot as does another bird that you may see in greater numbers South of the border soon, the skua. In respect to both these species, the RSPB is quite silent as to the damage they do to other bird species in their locale; although this can be seen by anyone who spends a bit of time around the cliffs where they hunt. . As for sea eagles, I think when more little old ladies get to hear of how many domestic cats are being taken by these birds they might not be quite so willing to put their contributions into the tin!
  7. Nice to see there is an up side..

    Now if we could persuade sea eagles to roost in Carnoustie, Dunblane, Morningside and Kevinside we will have cracked it..

    Not many monied little old ladies with a cat fetish in Wester Ross IMHO..!
  8. Ha, they may be in short supply in Wester Ross but the blue rinse brigade residing on Mull are less than impressed.
  9. The RSPCA are equally as naughty and very quiet about how they do it, our valley is where they release the foxes they catch in urban areas so there is always a massive influx of foxes trying to find food when there is not enough to sustain them. They are regulary shot and the RSPCA just drops more and more of them off.
  10. ugly

    ugly LE Moderator

    I happen to disagree with any lead ban, the birds touted for the tests in the USA were already dead, they were shot. There was no conclusive proof of lead poisoning and never has been. The current internet furore is driven entirely by so called charities and the shooting groups. As pointed out on this board already thee EHCA havent been asked to pprepare the ground for a ban but to merely investigate. There is no Eu agenda beyond that pushed by greens and so called charities who really want to stop all shooting but what the **** they will do then who knows.
    The activities of the RSPCA has reached such a peak that the Govt has asked the attorny General to investihgate why costs are never awarded against them. Its time to clip their wings every time they lose a case the public pays for it and the defendant never gets costs awarded.
    Ask the public about lead? They dont give a **** and will possibly die from toxins in intensively farmed or fake Eu Standard imported chicken from Thailand than ever come near a shot bird.
    I eat a hand ful of shot birds a year and lead is safer for your teeth than any other type of shot.
    It has been proven that to die in Finland from lead poisoning in elk meat you would need to feed a 5 year old child 50 kilos of meat a day for its entire life before it even came close to the levels of lead in the water supply!
    Net result the lot of them can get to **** and I will carry on and ignore the internet drivel!
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Well that’s at least two of us Ugs.
    • Like Like x 1
  12. ugly

    ugly LE Moderator

  13. That was interesting, I didn't know that they get such favourable treatment in court.

    In 'Puckoon' by Spike Milligan one of the characters, a poacher, sums up the RSPCA as a few good types, but most are concerned about cats and dogs, and the rest of the animal kingdom can go to hell.