Swine Flu

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by jsi49, Nov 22, 2009.

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  1. I am not going to make any comment but just post this link..

    The entire thing is presented in Spanish with subtitles. It is fairly lengthy but I urge you to stick with it and make up your own minds!

    I don't know how long this link will stay up!
  2. I couldn't hack any more than 15 minutes. Why don't you give us a quick rundown, and when the link is removed by whichever dark forces are conspiring to keep this information from us, we can read through it here on ARRSE...
  3. I've only got a cold, and Lemsip Max tablets are shite.

    That's all I have to say about that really.

    I've been on leave for a week, and didn't faint once, ish, but it would be a bit cheeky to go sick on Monday, so I'll just have another duvet day tomorrow and hope it all goes away.

    Slug xxx
  4. I find sleep helps :wink:
  5. Ive tried to type down some of the more important things the subtitles say rather than you all sitting though a 30 min video in Spanish.

    "Breif" Summary of the contents of the video, not personal opinon!

    Benedictine Nun and Physician giving her take on the recent H1N1/09 outbreak (swine flu).

    Claims it is the same strain as the 1918 Spanish Flu and that the strain dissapeared, then reappeared when it was resynthesized at a "lab in 1977" by exhuming the corpse of a Eskimo woman who died of Spanish Flu in 1918.
    There was indeed a swine flu outbreak in 1976 at a US Army base. She makes no mention of this specific case but I imagine its what she refers to.

    Then she claims that from this point in 1977 (not 1976) we get the A-H1N1 virus (normal flu) as part of the "normal seasonal flu". From here it is claimed that the new strain H1N1/09 has a lower mortality rate than the "common strain" A-H1N1.

    Now she is talking about Jan 2009 (before the H1N1/09 was discovered) Baxter International who have important subsidaries in Australia, distributed though European countries 72kg of vaccine (thousands of vials) for the seasonal strain of flu for Feb/March immunisations.

    The Czech company Bio Test who recieved one such package have an employee who carried out additional tests of the vaccine (though not required he did it anyway) on animals all of which died.

    Given that the animals were not expected to die from the tests, alarms were raised and checks were put in place to find out exactly what the vaccination from Baxter contained. It was discovered to contain two live viruses (H5N1) Bird Flu which has a low infection rate but high mortality rate and H3N2 Seasonal Flu which has high infection and low mortality.
    Thus maximising the probability for the two to mix to create a lethal high infection/high mortality strain of virus. The mixing of the strain in this batch is an established fact, admitted by Baxter. They will not disclose where the vials were destined for but say they were not intended for use on Humans. In addition the viruses within were not attenuated (screened through radiation). Thus it is highly improbable that the two strains were mixed by accident, given the strict procedures in labs. It is possible it was created with mallicious intent.

    Given that Baxter are involved in creating batches of Seasonal flu vaccine, it is not advisable to be vaccinated until they can explain why two live viruses came to be mixed and distributed thoughout Europe. If the scientist in Bio Test didnt check, it would have been undiscovered.

    Then she goes on to tell us about the second irregularity -

    This all happened in Jan/Feb 2009, the first recorded outbreak of "new flu" I assume she means H1N1/09 was on 17 April 2009. On 29 April Dr Margaret Chan from the World Health Organisation advised level 5 alert for the prevention of pandemic and just one and a half months later June 11 declare pandemic (level 6 the highest it can go) without knowing the full yearly infection and mortality rate. She further goes on to explain this is because the WHO changed the definition of Pandemic to suit the characteristics of this virus, if it remained the old definition it would not be a pandemic.

    A pandemic before was required to be an infectious agent infecting the population of differnt countries at the same time with a high mortality rate. It was revised and now does not require a high mortality rate (thus allowing H1N1/09 (swineflu) to be classed as a pandemic.

    Now the diagnosis of H1N1/09 can be made over the telephone without any medical tests or doctors visit it is possible that many diagnosed cases are not swineflu at all. Thus making the statistics, facts and figures on the flu unsubstantiated.

    She then goes on to discuss the political implications of declaring pandemic. The WHO who generally are advisors of medical matters to countries since 2005 are litterally "in charge" in cases of pandemic. They give orders which must be followed, not advice. Thus it is theorised we could reach a point of mandatory vaccination and she speaks of this in some depth about cases where people have already lost their jobs for refusing vaccine or fined up to $1000 per day, threatened with losing job etc.

    The discusses the "3 novelties" of this particular years vaccine, and why its different to the regular seasonal vaccine that people have been getting for years.

    1. The WHO reccomends the pharmacuticals who manufacture the vaccine and it will come in two doses not one.
    2. GlaxoSmithKline are using stronger "coadjuvants" than any other previous vaccine which are used to stimulate the immune system making it 10 times "stronger". French research suggests the coadjuvants are polysorbate and coadjuvent squaline which is the same as was used during the gulf war to protect against anthrax, studies suggest this could cause paralysis and arthrits. They use more coadjuvent to compensate for the lack of antigen per dose. CDC (centre for disease control have officialy stated that if the immunisation goes natioinal in america they are expecting cases of paralysis).
    3. That because pharmacutical companies are rushing though with the manufacturing of the vaccine they will be absolved of legal responsibility if the vaccine has any effects or causes death. In the US there is a document which states neither the companies or the politicians can be brought to justice for any problems that arise.

    Basically what the subtitles are saying is that there is substial evidence to suggest that the vaccine has not been properly tested, its effects are not known and its possible it could be contaminated. I dont know what the Nun is saying because I dont speak spanish.. but her actions and the words seem sincere and all she asks is that the vaccine is not forced on anyone who desires not to have it and those who do have it will have someone to be held accountable if it goes wrong.

    The vast majority of the facts in the subtitles are verifiable and there are no tinfoil hat theories to suggest some kind of global cleansing effort. The message is simple, dont over react but dont under react, share information on the subject and be sure to be sure before accepting any vaccine.

    Personal Looneytinfoilhatdailmailreading Opinion

    If we start to see a high number of non-vaccinated people die, the current vaccination will be non-effective and therefore not reccomended to take, if a low number of non-vaccinated people die as currently happening now then you can take your chances. If a high number of vaccinated people die then they are injecting us with birdflu.. thats my take :p
  6. I haven't been following this latest meeja attempt to 'keep 'em angry, keep 'em scared, keep 'em stupid' but has anyone mentioned how much worse the Spanish Flu of 1919 was? Or would that make us less scared and, therefore, compliant? (adjusts tinfoil hat)
  7. You trolling bellend.

    The screwup with Baxter was not with a human rated vaccine. It was found out when the test animals died and Baxter reported themselves to the authorities. Hardly an indication of a hard-core conspiracy!

    Your concerns about squaline and GBS are also crap if you manage to look at academic sources rather than newspapers and conspiraloon sites.
  8. Am I correct in thinking that a virus can mutate into another form within about 30 minutes, thus making any form of vaccination useless?
  9. No you're not correct.

    statistically, individual virus particales can mutate rather quickly, most of those will die out, the rest will have to compete against the existing population of viruses. Only if there is a significant change that favours the new virus (like a change that prevents the antibodies from attacking it) will the population of the new virus really start to overtake the population of the older variant.

    Most mutations will be minor variations on a theme. The flu virus has been broadly catagorised into families designated as HxNy, but there are many sub-groups of those. It's unlikely that a single mutation (or even a few generations of them) would significantly change the virus such that the bodies own system or a vaccine would be invalidated.
  10. As I mentioned in my post it was a summary of the content of the video, and bar the last paragraph, not personal opinon. I merely typed out a breif summary of what the subtitles read to save people the effort of sitting though 55 mins of watching a video with a Nun in it.

    I didnt say anywhere in my post wether I agreed or disagreed with the comments made in the video, just that the facts which were offered could almost all be substantiated mostly though CDC, WHO, British Medical Journal and one news agency, CNN (the only sources the "conspiraloon nun" proffered).

    So telling me "your concerns about squalene and gbs are also crap..." is rather pointless seeing as they arnt my concerns...

    ... you trolling bellend.
  11. If you want to post up conspiraloon bullsh1t, expect to take some flak for it, especially if you can't be bothered to form an opinion (definition of a troll), or properly research it.

    Squalene is also in that terribly horrendous ly dangerous foodstuff - Olive oil...

    According to this site the incidence of influenza vaccine related GBS attacks was only 10% higher than normal

    So, three things that were mentioned in the you-tube post that YOU put up are sown to be rubbish. If it's not your concern then why post it?
  12. I have been reading ARRSE threads for some time now, and I do get tired of the "instant insults" directed against anyone who raises legitimate concerns. This nun (who is also a qualified Doctor) has raised a serious set of concerns about a poorly-tested vaccine. You may not agree. Fine. You have the vaccine. I won't have it (or will try to avoid it for as long as possible).

    Her concerns are that we, as a population, and I as an individual, may not be able to refuse an apparently dodgy vaccine, as the WHO can make it MANDATORY. This is an incredibly serious authoritarian message, which it was legitimate to raise, particularly as it is not possible to sue the manufacturers of the vaccine.

    This is supposed to be a serious debating forum, and you have not only gratuitously insulted someone trying to raise an important point, but also you have avoided commenting on this part of the video.
  13. I started this thread in the hope that I would stimulate some educated and/or common sense debate on the subject. Not out of idle curiosity but out of personal interest. As an at risk individual, I am booked to have the jab next Monday (30th) and as I already have reservations about the safety of this particular vaccine and, indeed, the whole "Swine Flu" subject, I was, admittedly, looking for some help in making my mind up whether I should risk it or not.

    However, it has been my experience too - over the last couple of years - that this site is increasingly being taken over by MikeMcc type of subscriber who are very quick to start personally attacking anyone with the temerity to raise any debate that may be isn't in the club with those who deem themselves 'regulars'. I would expect it if I had posted in the NAAFI but not in a serious forum.

    Many thanks for the those who tried to keep it serious... appreciated.

    Edited to add: Colton, many, many thanks for the time and trouble you took to precise the video. I have taken a printout and will use it, hopefully, to have a frank discussion with my Doctor about my fears.
  14. If you post up instant drivel, you get instant insults. If you want to find out information, ask a question, don't post up youtube loonspudery.

    1. It's not 'poorly tested', though it is not as fully tested as normal, hence the bail out clauses from the governments. In the unlikely case that things go pear-shaped the government ministers are legally culpable.

    2. WHO have no power to make it compulsory anywhere, To my knowledge no country has tried to make it compulsory.

    If you put up a serious arguement, I'll argue the points, so far there hasn't been a serious point made.
  15. If you want detailed info on the illness upto the end of september try this link.


    The estimated risk of severe symptoms from the vaccine is estimated at between 1 in 100000 and 1 in 100000. That's symptoms worse than nausea, sore arm, etc. This is typically 10 to 100 times less than the flu itself (depending at what point in the year you compare it to. You're at more risk if you are younger and have higher risk factors (i.e. asthmatics)

    On a purely risk based analysis you are far safer to have the jab rather than not having it, unless you are over 65 or have an allergic reaction to egg products.