Supressed Document Lays bare the Lies.

#2
"These claims were also made in two dossiers, subsequently discredited, in spite of the advice by Mr Ross.

His hitherto secret evidence threatens to reopen the row over the legality of the conflict, under which Mr Blair has sought to draw a line as the internecine bloodshed in Iraq has worsened."

Threatens to reopen?? It HAS to reopen.

Blair should be arrested and tried in the Hague for this. He knows he's on thin ice, which is why he tries to keep it quiet and wants us to move on.
I bet if it was anyone else his missus would be all over this like a tramp on chips.
 
#3
Looks pretty damning to me, but no doubt the government will 'Kelly' this man.
How much time and energy must go into refuting such claims?
That 'energy' could be used to address domestic problems such as: health, education, crime - local and international, the real state of the economy, the breakdown of the family unit, the incipient collapse of the Union, national infrastructure such as railways - roads - water distribution - sewerage et cetera, immigration controls, the replacement of the House of Lords (which worked perfectly well for a thousand years or so), curbing the powers of the European Union, fighting the threat of terrorism, facing up to trade and manufacturing competition from emerging nations, and a host of other matters.
Where is the Opposition? It is time for a great clunking fist to get stuck into this dreadful apology for a government and soon!
 
#4
Carne Ross should have come clean years ago. There is no way this lying deceitful Govt would win a case before a jury. Blair should be tried in the Hague and the British people should get rid of this Govt at the earliest opportunity. This war was illegal. The Inquiry a whitewash. I am ashamed to call myself British under this regime.
 
#5
In the testimony revealed today Mr Ross, 40, who helped negotiate several UN security resolutions on Iraq, makes it clear that Mr Blair must have known Saddam Hussein possessed no weapons of mass destruction. He said that during his posting to the UN, "at no time did HMG [Her Majesty's Government] assess that Iraq's WMD (or any other capability) posed a threat to the UK or its interests."

Mr Ross revealed it was a commonly held view among British officials dealing with Iraq that any threat by Saddam Hussein had been "effectively contained".

He also reveals that British officials warned US diplomats that bringing down the Iraqi dictator would lead to the chaos the world has since witnessed. "I remember on several occasions the UK team stating this view in terms during our discussions with the US (who agreed)," he said.

"At the same time, we would frequently argue when the US raised the subject, that 'regime change' was inadvisable, primarily on the grounds that Iraq would collapse into chaos."
Unbelievable. Nice of them to forget to tell the rest of us.

This is the most damaging revelation yet.
 
#6
Oh dear.

Supplementary evidence submitted by Mr Carne Ross, Director, Independent Diplomat


SUBMISSION TO BUTLER REVIEW

"I am in the Senior Management Structure of the FCO, currently seconded to the UN in Kosovo. I was First Secretary in the UK Mission to the United Nations in New York from December 1997 until June 2002. I was responsible for Iraq policy in the mission, including policy on sanctions, weapons inspections and liaison with UNSCOM and later UNMOVIC.


During that time, I helped negotiate several UN Security Council resolutions on Iraq, including resolution 1284 which, inter alia, established UNMOVIC (an acronym I coined late one New York night during the year-long negotiation). I took part in policy debates within HMG and in particular with the US government. I attended many policy discussions on Iraq with the US State Department in Washington, New York and London.


My concerns about the policy on Iraq divide into three:


Continues here - Oh dear.......
 
#9
Thanks Blogg, returned and precised (Copyright etc)

PTP
 
#10
This man:
I am in the Senior Management Structure of the FCO, currently seconded to the UN in Kosovo. I was First Secretary in the UK Mission to the United Nations in New York from December 1997 until June 2002. I was responsible for Iraq policy in the mission, including policy on sanctions, weapons inspections and liaison with UNSCOM and later UNMOVIC.

I was a member of the FCO from 1989 to 2004, when I resigned after giving evidence to the Butler review. As a member of the so-called "fast stream" of the Diplomatic Service, I served, inter alia, as head of the Middle East Peace Process section (1995-97), speechwriter to the Foreign Secretary (1997-98.), and First Secretary (Political) at the UK Mission to the UN, New York, where I was responsible for the Middle East, and in particular Iraq (1998-2002). I served briefly in Afghanistan after the US/UK invasion and was seconded to the UN mission in Kosovo in 2003-04. By the time I resigned, I had joined the Senior Management Structure of the FCO.
says:
I read the available UK and US intelligence on Iraq every working day for the four and a half years of my posting. This daily briefing would often comprise a thick folder of material, both humint and sigint. I also talked often and at length about Iraq's WMD to the international experts who comprised the inspectors of UNSCOM/UNMOVIC, whose views I would report to London. In addition, I was on many occasions asked to offer views in contribution to Cabinet Office assessments, including the famous WMD dossier (whose preparation began some time before my departure in June 2002).

During my posting, at no time did HMG assess that Iraq's WMD (or any other capability) posed a threat to the UK or its interests. On the contrary, it was the commonly-held view among the officials dealing with Iraq that any threat had been effectively contained. I remember on several occasions the UK team stating this view in terms during our discussions with the US (who agreed). (At the same time, we would frequently argue, when the US raised the subject, that "régime change" was inadvisable, primarily on the grounds that Iraq would collapse into chaos.)
Read on here, here and here...


Editted to add.
PTP. Please merge with other thread on same subject. Didn't spot it. :x
 
#12
Yes. A man of notable courage and personal integrity. Of course his words and actions will cost him dear, if they have not done so already. But one has to admire him both for his bravery and for the clarity of his thought and comments.

Would that there were many more like Mr Carne Ross...
 
#13
nigegilb said:
Carne Ross should have come clean years ago. There is no way this lying deceitful Govt would win a case before a jury. Blair should be tried in the Hague and the British people should get rid of this Govt at the earliest opportunity. This war was illegal. The Inquiry a whitewash. I am ashamed to call myself British under this regime.
Nige - seconded - but we should not be 'surprised' at the revelation of Carne Ross' evidence. The falsehoods presented by TB/GWB in 2002 were - to anyone who cared to think a bit harder about their combined words and deeds than were most journos - transparent in the first instance. Follow one or other of the links in my signature block to get a feel for that.

It is only in the last 12 months that one or two journos have gone back to their reporting in 2002, looked at it as a whole, and gone "Ooo - fvck me - it was obvious all along". The fact that 90% of our MPs swallowed the porkies is what I find really scary.

Will either of them stand trial - well i ain't rushin' off to ladbrokes to put a fiver on it: but in the unlikley event they want to form a firing squad for the pair of 'em, I'll volunteer to deliver the coup de grace.

And finally, from the BBC, former PM John Major (of GW1 fame) made some very pithy comments this morning, on how we got to where we are now, how the government owes its troops some honesty, and the limits on what we can do now:

Today evidence has been published that suggests the government NEVER truly believed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Sir John Major tells us his views.
Listen again HERE

Real Audio (*.ram) file.
No transcript available.
 
#14
Unsworth said:
Yes. A man of notable courage and personal integrity. Of course his words and actions will cost him dear, if they have not done so already. But one has to admire him both for his bravery and for the clarity of his thought and comments.

Would that there were many more like Mr Carne Ross...
You'd do better to ask why the information in his testimony was withheld until now: I am sure that most of the people who spoke to the enquiry were as honest - but didn't know as much.

I wanna know:
Who decided to keep a lid on this? Did they think it would stay buried? Did they let it out today in hopes of taking attention away from TB 'helping the Police with their inquiries'? Or was it the other way round?
 
#15
Stonker said:
You'd do better to ask why the information in his testimony was withheld until now: I am sure that most of the people who spoke to the enquiry were as honest - but didn't know as much.

I wanna know:
Who decided to keep a lid on this? Did they think it would stay buried? Did they let it out today in hopes of taking attention away from TB 'helping the Police with their inquiries'? Or was it the other way round?
Much of that is fair comment and of great relevance. The question also hinges on why it has taken so long before proper parliamentary scrutiny. My guess is that TGarden can advise on that aspect. Even so, it takes courage to be a whistleblower - by accident or by design - as we all know.

I suspect that if Carne Ross had blown the whistle earlier his revelations would not have had the same effect, indeed they would have been smothered. There's much more impact if such things are placed in the public domain at a Parliamentary Committee hearing. What's also interesting here is that almost certainly someone tipped off his inquisitors...
 
#16
Stonks, I never believed in the Iraq war, I packed my bergen 3 times expecting to go but I was looked after because I was about to leave. I always believed it was a made up war, I always believed Blair was twisting the truth beyond credibility. To their utter shame Labour MPs voted for it, the Conservative Party failed to scrutinise it and John Scarlett helped legitimise it. I have lost some good mates as I am sure many people on ARRSE have. We are owed some answers now, as are the bereaved families and we should start by holding a no holds barred Inquiry, not chaired by feeble judges afraid to rock the establishment boat.
 
#17
I recall that Carne Ross was threatened with prosecution under OSA if he went public. Presumably, after giving evidence to Butler and seeing it kept quiet, he concluded that the whole thing was a fait accompli or that he would be "taken for a walk in the woods".

The fact that Iraq is falling to pieces is what changes the situation. Ross can now publish and be damned. If Iraq had somehow gone right, he would probably have kept quiet, as history is written by the victors.

There is a lot going on at the moment - cash for honours, the BAE Saudi "public interest" SFO interference. Add to that the Christmas season, Parliamentary recess and the Suffolk murders, and the public-media arena is rather muddled.

I am sure this will be picked up in the New Year, with much plotting in the meantime. :twisted:

I didn't have to go into theatre with my ops support job during the Iraq invasion, but I was in daily contact with various units concerned with maintaining a comms capability, or at least trying to maintain it! From what I heard, it was clear that only lip service was being paid to the much-quoted NBC threat. The idea there was a 45 minute capability is laughable, and was laughable at the time.
 

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