super regiments

ugly

LE
Moderator
#61
Meeoww!
 
#62
It's an odd effect, "elite units" such as the guards, rifles, light infantry, highlanders and fusiliers have been amalgamated such more slowly and so form a much greater proportion of the infantry battalions than in yesteryear.

Case in point:
(% ca. 1860/ % today)
Guards: 5%/ 15%
Rifles: 5%/ 5% or 15% inc/ LI etc.
LI: 5%/ 5% or see Rifles
Highlanders: 6%/ 9%
Para: 0%/ 9%
Fusiliers and Line: 79%/ 52% (post "Rifles")

This excludes Gurkha Bns.

Some have seen a slight rise (Highlanders), but the biggest rise is in the Guards, where now 1 Bn in 7 is a Guards Bn.
 
#63
Surely any form of reorganisation of the Guards would have to be carefully managed, as removing a regiment would mean that one of our five composite nationalities would lose out, and that might cause serious offence! There might be the way out in just amalgamating the two english regiments (Gren Gds and Colm Gds). Although if you were being really picky, Wales is only part of England!
 
#64
taggytwo said:
I started this as a joke, now look how seriously you have all taken it.
You need to calm down and remember who runs the Army, and ask yourselves which Inf regiments have never been merged.

you all hate the Guards to much, which to an ex GDSM is highly amusing, we never took ourselves seriously you dont need to when your the best. LOL
Best at what exactly - Bullsh!t and looking like a muppet outside Buck House, St James Palace and The Tower. Real soldiering eh.

BT :thumbdown:
 
#65
future_rupert said:
Surely any form of reorganisation of the Guards would have to be carefully managed, as removing a regiment would mean that one of our five composite nationalities would lose out, and that might cause serious offence! There might be the way out in just amalgamating the two english regiments (Gren Gds and Colm Gds). Although if you were being really picky, Wales is only part of England!
Which is why the HCav approach is the most acceptable, after all, the Guards have a long history of composite Bns (until they got 2nd Bns circa early 19th c).

The idea would be have have 3 number combat battalions (1st, 2nd and 3rd Foot Guards) and a Ceremonial Bn, but the individual companies retain the capbadges (so at any one time 1st Foot Guards might consist of Queen's Company, Inkermann Company and Prince of Wales's Company, say).

Or we could recruit more soldiers, if the Westminster fun factory will allow....
 
#66
taggytwo said:
:

I hate all this rapeing of the Regimental history our army is the poorer without the D&D, The gloucesters, and Black watch.

:pissedoff
Um, more's the pity but the Black Watch are still alive and kicking. At no time has any of this super-regiment stuff touched them except in part of their name only. They still refer to themselves as the Black Watch and their official title is 3rd Battalion, the Royal Regiment of Scotland; the Black Watch.

All the hype, bluff and bluster that surrounded them in the last round of cuts was merely diversionary and lead to the extinction of other regiments. Undermanned that they are, they were left entirely alone.
 
#67
Sapukay said:
It's an odd effect, "elite units" such as the guards, rifles, light infantry, highlanders and fusiliers have been amalgamated such more slowly and so form a much greater proportion of the infantry battalions than in yesteryear.

Case in point:
(% ca. 1860/ % today)
Guards: 5%/ 15%
Rifles: 5%/ 5% or 15% inc/ LI etc.
LI: 5%/ 5% or see Rifles
Highlanders: 6%/ 9%
Para: 0%/ 9%
Fusiliers and Line: 79%/ 52% (post "Rifles")

This excludes Gurkha Bns.

Some have seen a slight rise (Highlanders), but the biggest rise is in the Guards, where now 1 Bn in 7 is a Guards Bn.
since when have most of them been 'Elite' except in the eyes of the Daily Mail? Officially our elite units are the Paras and Marines (although they're not actually ours anyway). There's nothing elite about the rest on there - with the possible exception of the Ghurkas.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#68
Plenty of Gurkha bns went the same way though I suspect for reasons other than manning!
 
#70
LostBoss said:
nomadcelt said:
There's nothing elite about the rest on there - with the possible exception of the Ghurkas.
You owe me a coffee

and the word's "petite" not "elite".
don't do coffee but a lovely calming cup of warm milk would be lovely as I sometimes get over-excited.
 
#71
Officially our elite units are the Paras and Marines
hmm, who is this official who declares units elite then?

And is the Army website official enough or does it need to appear in the London Gazette?
 
#72
nomadcelt said:
taggytwo said:
:

I hate all this rapeing of the Regimental history our army is the poorer without the D&D, The gloucesters, and Black watch.

:pissedoff
Um, more's the pity but the Black Watch are still alive and kicking. At no time has any of this super-regiment stuff touched them except in part of their name only. They still refer to themselves as the Black Watch and their official title is 3rd Battalion, the Royal Regiment of Scotland; the Black Watch.

All the hype, bluff and bluster that surrounded them in the last round of cuts was merely diversionary and lead to the extinction of other regiments. Undermanned that they are, they were left entirely alone.
Oh.... FFS...conspiracy, conspiracy / jealousy, jealousy!

Of course the Watch has been affected by the forming of RRS. Just look at the RRS cap badge, that minging dogs dinner of No;1/ 2 dress and as per all the other Bns within RRS we lost our own Regimental status.

The antecedent names are still held, and quite rightly so. This was one of the concessions granted to ALL the former Scottish Division Regiments by ECAB..... EG 1RHF is now The Royal Highland Fusiliers , 2nd Battalion, The Royal Regiment of Scotland.

Also see- www.army.mod.uk/infantry/regts/scots click on Battalions link.

How can you say that all the "Hype" "Bluff" and "Bluster" as you called it, surrounding 1BW prior to 28/03/2006 lead to the extinction of other Regiments....what a load of shite. So which Regiments are you talking about exactly???

The old Scots Div was meant to lose 2 Battalions......Supposidly 1RS and rumoured 1HLDRS. (I am prepared to be corrected on 1HLDRS).

1BW was never under any threat of Amalgamation OR disbandment in the traditional sense of the word. IE Like the Cameronians.

ECAB had decided long before any campaign to save the regiments was concieved, that they ECAB would proceed with FAS/ FIS as they saw fit.

As for 1BWs manning levels.....are you for real?

Look at 1RS before 28 March 2006, one quarter of their strength....(a mere 400+) were Fijians....Im not belittling the Fijians at all.The point Im making is that 1RS had failed to recruit and retain men in one of the most densely populated areas of Scotland.Sad but true!

Sure 1BW had Fijians but nowhere near the number of 1RS.

Manning levels for RRS as at 01/08/2006.

1RRS - Strength 700 - Establishment 570. (1RS / 1KOSB Combined)
2RRS - Strength 500 - Establishment 570.
3RRS - Strength 560 - Establishment 570. - (1BW Pre-28/03/2006)
4RRS - Strength 550 - Establishment 640.
5RRS - Strength 540 - Establishment 590.

I think the figures speak for themselves.Do BW look understrength?Er NO!

These figures are from a Parliamentary Document dated 31/10/2006.

Are you or have you ever been in a Scottish Inf Battalion? If you are serving I would have expected you to have been a little better informed.

Rant over! :frustrated:
 
#73
Sapukay
I think you will find the Grenadiers already are the 1st Foot Guards.
There full title is "The First Or Grenadier Regiment of Foot Guards".
 
#74
That's post KOSB breakup.

The 1 Apr 06 figures are (Jul 98 figures are in parentness of comparison for long range estimates):

RS Bn: 480 (408)
KOSB Bn: 440 (440)
RHF Bn: 470 (500)
BW Bn: 540 (446)
Hghldr Bn: 520 (476)
A&SH Bn: 440 (513)

All bar A&SH are light role, and are on an establishment of roughly 570. A&SH are in the AAslt role with a 640 establishment. % or number short of establishment is a very poor guide, since Warrior and AAslt Bns have a much larger establishment.

The Scots Div of 5 Light/Mech and 1 Armour/Air Assault Bn needs about 3,500 (about 3,400 in 1998 as LR had an even smaller establishment), the 6 Bns were 600 short in 2006 and about 600 short in 1998. In fact the Div has been about 600 short for about a decade. Long term we can get about 2,800 infantry from Scotland, whatever way we arrange it.

Longterm, the Black Watch are by far the best recruited Scots Bn, the RHF are 2nd (but really trailing) and the other 4 were the long term numerically weakest Bns in the infantry, ergo it made sense to merge 1 RS and 1 KOSB, and 1 Hghldrs and 1 A&SH.
 
#75
GwaiLo said:
Officially our elite units are the Paras and Marines
hmm, who is this official who declares units elite then?

And is the Army website official enough or does it need to appear in the London Gazette?
elite as in "set apart" units throughout the ages have been:

The Guards (obviously, for social reasons)
The Fusiliers, then LI, then Rifles, then Paras were the elite light infantries of their ages, distingished by different weapons or ways of fighting (who over time got replaced as the elites, but the distinction remained)
The Highlanders were an elite shock infantry in their time, due to the tribal nature of the older Highland regiments, who became simply infantry for the far north of Britain as the tribal nature of Highland society changed.
 
#76
Sapukay, it was rhetorical and in response to a bone comment.

Since when did we have "Officially Elite" units?

And if we do, here you go, it's "Official" The Rifles are The British Army's elite rifle regiment. http://www.army.mod.uk/infantry/regts/the_rifles/

Quite apart from historic claims, there are many units who can claim to be exceptionally good in a particular role or to have a unique role.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#77
Will there be a Rifles Rifle association as there was with the LI? I would like to shoot!
 
#78
That's partially the point, throughout the ages there's been a general aversion to elite regiments in the tactical. However, the social elitism that accompanied them has meant that they've been disbanded/ amalgamated at a slower rate than the line/ county regiments, to the point that now less than half the infantry are bog standard county regiments.
 
#79

ugly

LE
Moderator
#80
Cheers mate, that would help with getting my two lads shooting more often! Isnt that the old RGJ/Lt Div hut?
 

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