Summer of discontent

#1
Some think the Grangemouth dispute looks ever more like Unions wanting to try their luck with weak Governments

If I understand correctly, Ineos want to close the existing final salary non contributory pension scheme to new joiners. Nothing new in that, loads of other employers have done the same.

They also want the existing workers to pay 6% of their salary in pension contributions, to be phased in over 5 years. That is tax deductable so the real cost is reduced. Otherwise, the terms of their existing pension rights remain exactly the same. OK that seems a bit tough but negotiable.

There is no evidence that £40m has been "stolen" from the pension fund. Indeed, Stewart Ritchie, President of the Faculty of Actuaries, has been asked by the Scottish Government (just typing that I feel soiled) to carry out a study to clarify the issues which are in dispute between INEOS and the Union. That would take all the issues off the table for three months, the true facts become clear and negotiations proceed from there. Hurrah.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Rele...08/04/21160611

But that has been rejected outright. So what is it?

(1) Union really wants a strike for darker reasons

(2) It is a bit of brinksmanship by the Union

(3) Ineos really are evil capitalist oil company scum cloned from the decaying ringpiece of Robert Maxwell, hellbent on plundering pension schemes and grinding the starving workers into the dust.

(4) All of the above
 
#2
I think try one and two.

Three, much over stated as it is :D , is a reflection of real life - there are very few industries using a final salary scheme and the business is only closing it to new members. As to pension contributions. Accept that this will, in real terms reduce the monthly wage but if the firm is planning to contribute in kind then it seems fair enough.

Folks should remember that all businesses are trying to be sensible in reducing costs. Ineos, from what I've read, is still a pretty good place to work in comparison to many.
 
#3
Everybody's spoiling for a fight and not just in this dispute. Nobody's satisfied with their lot, everyone feels under pressure and we're all biting and snapping at each other.

It's been hanging in the air for the last 2 years at least. The shit the banks are causing and inflated food prices are just the spark.
 

old_fat_and_hairy

LE
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#5
smartascarrots said:
Everybody's spoiling for a fight and not just in this dispute. Nobody's satisfied with their lot, everyone feels under pressure and we're all biting and snapping at each other.

It's been hanging in the air for the last 2 years at least. The shit the banks are causing and inflated food prices are just the spark.
I believe you are right. There is a smell of discontent in the air, a tang of rebellion. I've always been the msot moderate of people but now I'm ready to start decoarting the lamp posts, as per Italian style 1944. The far right are growing in influence, and while I find it abhorrent, it is also understandable.
 
#6
smartascarrots said:
Everybody's spoiling for a fight and not just in this dispute. Nobody's satisfied with their lot, everyone feels under pressure and we're all biting and snapping at each other.

It's been hanging in the air for the last 2 years at least. The shit the banks are causing and inflated food prices are just the spark.
Too many people at the end of their tether?
I can see a lot more of it to come and to be honest people have more than a little bit of a point.
There does sem to be an ethos in Whitehall these days that the entire population exists to serve the state (the state being the "Party"), its really starting to bite pretty hard for Mr/Mrs average now. Real inflation in the region of 12-15%, bullshit green policies, food shortage scaremongering, it all adds up and people can only take so much, This fuel potential fuel shortage may just be the catalyst that make people really sit up and take notice
 

old_fat_and_hairy

LE
Book Reviewer
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#7
Marx said 'History repeats itself. Once as tragedy, then as farce'
The present climate is reminiscent of pre-war Germany, the Weimar Republic, or Russia pre 1917. There is a palpable feeling in the air, of discontent, of despair and of unfairness.
The middle class, once the backbone of this country have been marginalised, emsculated and persecuted. The working class are now the middle classes, and what should be the working class are the non-working class,; an underclass of strident feckless benefit claimers. Those who believe 'if there is blame, there is a claim'
The government have resorted to the tactics that have always been used when internal unrest is strong; start a war. Keep the proletariat focused on something else, appeal to their patriotism. Except now it doesn't work. The proles are far too interested in Jermey Kyle and the freak shows like his. Too bound up with beating their breasts and saying 'it's not my fault. It is somebody else'.
We have been betrayed by a party that was promoted far beyond it's competence, and by politicians who are at best useless, and at worst dangerous.
 
#8
old_fat_and_hairy said:
Marx said 'History repeats itself. Once as tragedy, then as farce'
The present climate is reminiscent of pre-war Germany, the Weimar Republic, or Russia pre 1917. There is a palpable feeling in the air, of discontent, of despair and of unfairness.
The middle class, once the backbone of this country have been marginalised, emsculated and persecuted. The working class are now the middle classes, and what should be the working class are the non-working class,; an underclass of strident feckless benefit claimers. Those who believe 'if there is blame, there is a claim'
The government have resorted to the tactics that have always been used when internal unrest is strong; start a war. Keep the proletariat focused on something else, appeal to their patriotism. Except now it doesn't work. The proles are far too interested in Jermey Kyle and the freak shows like his. Too bound up with beating their breasts and saying 'it's not my fault. It is somebody else'.
We have been betrayed by a party that was promoted far beyond it's competence, and by politicians who are at best useless, and at worst dangerous.
The Weimar Republic? You're having a laugh aren't You.

Are You seriously suggesting that things are as desperate as that period in Germanys history?
 

old_fat_and_hairy

LE
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
#9
No, I said it was reminiscent of it. Which in this instance should be interpreted as being vaguely similar. Rampant inflation, food shortages, fuel prices rising, housing problems,untrustworthy politicians, over zealous officials and a politicised police. All leading to a discontented populace.


But obviously nothing a Liberal Government couldn't solve?
 
#10
Not so bloody far off Sven. Been to any of your local community meetings recently? People are complaining about all and sundry. From food prices, to the all-seeing cctv shite, to never seeing a policeman when you need one, crappy public transport, hospitals so dangerous you'd rather die at home thank you very much, water rates, fat useless slags pushing £550 baby walkers, and public toilets you can't go in without having some random perv offering to lick your pee-pee, or an official one with even more cct fuking v looking at you from a spy camera from his 'office'.

........ And me lawnmower's broke.

Bastard of a day.
 
#11
The veneer of our so called civil society is very thin. Very thin and fragile indeed, perhaps more so now than in recent history.

There are well informed people fully predicting some form of civil unrest to kick off (or rather be fomented) in the next couple of months.
 
#12
smartascarrots said:
Everybody's spoiling for a fight and not just in this dispute. Nobody's satisfied with their lot, everyone feels under pressure and we're all biting and snapping at each other.

It's been hanging in the air for the last 2 years at least. The shit the banks are causing and inflated food prices are just the spark.
IMO working people have just about had enougth. The lifestyle of some workers is going downhill. Not massively so but down nevertheless. Meanwhile the tax burden increases and too much of it is used to reward people that contribute nothing to the economy by choice.

We have millions not working (through choice) while we import labour (real labour not those useless gits in Whitehall) by the shed-load. People (the workers and not the shysters) are getting fed up.

The government are shamelessly using different inflation %'s depending upon the point they want to make. People get anoyed at that? Not exactly surprising!
 
#13
Sven said:
old_fat_and_hairy said:
Marx said 'History repeats itself. Once as tragedy, then as farce'
The present climate is reminiscent of pre-war Germany, the Weimar Republic, or Russia pre 1917. There is a palpable feeling in the air, of discontent, of despair and of unfairness.
The middle class, once the backbone of this country have been marginalised, emsculated and persecuted. The working class are now the middle classes, and what should be the working class are the non-working class,; an underclass of strident feckless benefit claimers. Those who believe 'if there is blame, there is a claim'
The government have resorted to the tactics that have always been used when internal unrest is strong; start a war. Keep the proletariat focused on something else, appeal to their patriotism. Except now it doesn't work. The proles are far too interested in Jermey Kyle and the freak shows like his. Too bound up with beating their breasts and saying 'it's not my fault. It is somebody else'.
We have been betrayed by a party that was promoted far beyond it's competence, and by politicians who are at best useless, and at worst dangerous.
The Weimar Republic? You're having a laugh aren't You.

Are You seriously suggesting that things are as desperate as that period in Germanys history?
That is not what was meant and you know it - he meant that the current situation tends to remind people of the frustration, apathy and distrust of "The System" felt by people at that timesstated above.

You'll be telling me everything is OK then - its not! It's a crock of sh1t - unless you're a fecking Chav in which case its money for nothing and (Chav) chicks for free. The Gobmint is letting the UK go the dogs and the Chattering Classes (Guardianistas) simply tut-tut at us ignorant Plebs for moaning about the state of things.

An der Wand :twisted:
 
#15
Sven said:
The Weimar Republic? You're having a laugh aren't You.

Are You seriously suggesting that things are as desperate as that period in Germanys history?
Sven, you are, I take it, an activist for the Lob Phlegms, aren't you? As such, you tow the party line and are prepared to believe the misinformation they provide. Your masters are well out of touch with us plebs and, from reading your posts over the years, so are you. Regarding Weimar Republic. This analogy is not necessarily far off the mark. Prior to the hyper-inflationary period in the Weimar Republic there was calm before the storm. At the beginning of the hyperinflation there was a even a brief period where ordinary people felt better off. This didn't last long, though. The point being that ordinary people had no idea about what was about to affect them. And we don't know what could be just around the corner. Take nothing for granted.

Certainly, we are in a period of high inflation. It's possible that hyperinflation could be just around the corner -- that's how bad things are. However, we could be about to experience a deflationary spiral -- in fact, if we consider the credit freeze in the banking sector then it appears that we are at the beginning of a deflationary spiral. However, it's possible that we could experience monetary deflation -- a contraction in the availability of ready cash -- and price inflation, due to population expansion and the rising price of essential goods.

Yes, Sven. Things are potentially as devastating as Weimar Germany. Maybe they could be even worse than Weimar Germany. Your political masters don't want us to know that, though. Maybe, as part of their apparatus, you don't want us to be aware of the potential severity of the situation either. I doubt that, though, since while you strike me as a misinformed and idealistic individual, you don't strike me as a malicious and dishonest person.

Blogg said:
The veneer of our so called civil society is very thin. Very thin and fragile indeed, perhaps more so now than in recent history.

There are well informed people fully predicting some form of civil unrest to kick off (or rather be fomented) in the next couple of months.
Do you have a contact number, by any chance?
 
#16
With the government about to print £50 Billions for the banks, people queing for petrol and food inflation rising, and a leader scared of elections, sounds more like Zimbabwe
 

old_fat_and_hairy

LE
Book Reviewer
Reviews Editor
#17
Relieved to know that I'm not the only one who has heard mutterings from well-informed sources, and that someone, albeit not the right someone, is hearing. That is not to say they are listening, though.
As a previous poster said - toparaphrase - we are a moderate nation, more likely to grumble into our bitter than build barricades, but we have had revolutions in this country before, and I have been around for a good few years but have never heard such despair or discontent from folks around me as I have recently.
We used to trust the Establishment, to a greater or lesser degree, but now who is there left to trust? Whatever ones views on hereditary peerages, the old style House of lords did provide checks and balances. Now it is packed with Tony Cronies. The police used to command our respect and admiration, but now it doesn't, and I take nothing away from dedicated and hard working coppers when I say this. It is the upper levels of 'management', a hateful phrase, but they follow a politcal agenda.
The armed forces still hold a tremendous amount of public trust and love, but they are being kept away, run down and attempts made to subvert their leaders.
Maybe a middle class revolution is the answer, and the usual cloak of apathy does seem to be peeling away.
 
#18
How about just a few days of mass madness (a bank holiday weekend perhaps) where we disembowel our MPs, local councillors, visiting Eurocrats and a few celebrities for good measure, before returning to work on the Tuesday as if nothing had happened?

I'm sure that's the British way of doing things.
 
#19
I couldn't agree more OFAH. I mentioned in another thread somewhere that its coming. The country is fundamentally broken and something has to change. Politicians have no idea about regular people anymore, just look at the way they fritter away billions of our money on whims. The recent 10p tax fiasco then U turn is another case in point of not really understanding the effects of their actions.

The balance of power has swung way too far in favour of government and the people are slowly getting more and more unhappy. I don't think a full on revolution is coming but there will be civil unrest, the like we haven;t seen in 20 years by the end of the year in my view.

It reminds me of the arrogance that had crept into the Tories after 15 years of government last time. They were out of touch but hadn't broken the country. This lot are out of touch and have screwed up the economy. When you go home tonight remember that over and above what they have taxed out of your pocket they've put every household in the UK in debt for almost another 28,000 pounds, nice of them eh.
 
#20
I wouldn't hold out much hope for a concerted campaign. Too many people have been 'me, me, me' for too many years for them to put that aside and act for the common good. Any action that is taken will be sporadic, uncoordinated and extremely violent, most likely directed against those with no more responsibility for the state of affairs than the rest of us. The outsiders, the strangers, the different will bear the brunt of the discontent.

Ask people to take intelligent retribution against those responsible for actually creating the mess in the first place, and they'll start to wonder if maybe the house of cards is really all that bad, I mean really? Mention civil disobedience, ignoring the diktats of local and central government or just plain standing up for what they believe is right and devil take the consequences, they'll most likely just blink owlishly and start to wonder where the next holiday is coming from or whether Tesco still have those wonderfully cheap garden furniture sets. Consequences is not a word British people like to hear these days, I'm very much afraid.
 

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