SUIT sight for GPMG

Discussion in 'Military History and Militaria' started by jimmy_jazz, Sep 20, 2007.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. I remember this being part of the SF kit as issued in Minden in the early 80's - it was fitted via a bracket ala IWS, why not a SUSAT version? Seemed a waste of effectiveness to use a weapon capable of puting rounds down at longe range having to rely on iron sites and if you're lucky a spotter with a pair of bino's.

    Anyone else get issued this? and why was it never used? i know the concept of 'area weapon' 'beaten zone' and 'suppressive fire' but in the light role and on many a range day, why were we beasted for not 'double tapping'?
     
  2. Never saw it but I think a "drop on" 6X sight would be handy for GPMG in the light role. SUSAT is dated now and probably wouldn't be first choice. Try ACOG. (It would need calibrating for 7.62 - as would SUSAT which probably why it wasn't fitted)

    Big question is:
    How repeatable is the mounting? Does it really go back to zero?

    One problem in practice is that the butt of the GPMG is set up for iron sights so it would be hard to get a good firing position when using a scope.

    Nice idea but I think it would need a lot of work to be effective.

    I've seen pictures of scopes (CWS?) on Minimi and it would be impossible to get a good cheek weld on the butt and still see through the scope. This would mean that accuracy would be so poor that the benefits of an optic sight would be negated.

    Iron sights are actually very effective but need a bit more training and practice than scopes.
     
  3. I joined 84 and left 2000 and I only went on one range day that conservation of rounds wasn't a priority, that was a AA shoot in Cyprus.

    The British Army that I know doesn't waste rounds on pure 'supression', I was told once that if you hit one of the enemy with one round that is all the supression you need.

    I shot the LMG (bren crossed out), GPMG and LSW and on each the 'double tap' was taught (Hardest on the LSW). I can understand why as it gives you a 'feel' for the weapon and enables you to deliver the rounds on target required without doing a yank 'spray and pray'.

    Therefore I can see the need for a optical sight in the direct role. The bottom line is we are good at shooting and should make the most of that skill.
     
  4. There was never a SUIT sight fitted to the GPMG and there was never one as part of the SF kit in the 1980's or 1970's.

    The sight fitted in the pic is the one issued in the SF kit.
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Hi Ex Stab, thanks for the reply. The SUIT sight was issued for SLR's and i always prefered to use them. Zeroing was pretty easy, just a case of turning an elevation screw and a L/R screw so it wasn't a problem to calibrate a 7.62mm weapon ,also remember zeroing GPMGs by loading one round at time via the very unsafe way of poking the round up the barrel (working parts to the rear with the safety catch most definetely on!) then firing a 5 rd group, one round a time - to find the MPI.
     
  6. VB, Good answer. I probably made the wrong point in saying it was part of the SF kit but i definetely remember it being part of the kit i had to sign for - i even remember mounting it on the gun to see how it worked and thinking ..'feck me! how come i've been in 6 years and never seen this before?'..maybe it just wasn't general issue or proved to be a bit pointless?
     
  7. We have brackets that can be fitted to GPMG's enabling CWS/Maxikite etc to be fitted. I'm not convinved optical (day) sights are the way ahead for the GPMG for the same reasons not many people use the SUSAT on the Minimi - each time the top cover is slammed down and smacked home you run the risk of nudging the zero out a little, and the size of the beaten zone is greater than the area visible through the sight - you cant see where all your rounds are landing/who they may be hitting. Night sights are a fair one and proved pretty useful.
     
  8. Yes but you're missing the point. The range dial on SUIT was calibrated for 7.62 NATO BALL.
    SUSAT had its range dial calibrated for 5.56 NATO. It would not therefore be suitable for 7.62 without a different adjuster mechanism because 7.62 and 5.56 follow a different ballistic curve through the atmosphere.

    I think that as Violent Badger suggests, what you saw wasn't SUIT - it was the C2 SF/81mm Mortar indirect fire sight as seen in service with our Canadian Brethren here:[​IMG]

    It can be adjusted so that it might resemble SUIT from a distance.

    See this Australian image:
    [​IMG]




    The following image illustrates my earlier remark on poor optical sight mounting on minimi
    [​IMG]

    I could do better than that with a couple of jubilee clips and some plastic padding!
     
  9. Ok mate, cheers for the further reply and comments, point taken about SUSAT being calibrated for 5.56 but i have seen a picture on this site which shows the early SUSATs mounted on SLR's, so technically and with a bit of swag, plus experimenting on a range, why couldn't current SUSAT MPI's or CZP's be adjusted accordingly for 7.62? (Both us and the IDF used SUIT sights on the 84mm - isn't the MV the same as the SLR?)but we'll have to disagree on a few things....and i don't mean my alcohol fueled memory

    I did a stint as an MFC and also spent more than few days on the mortar line,..don't you just love all the prepping for a live shoot?....so i know the C2 sight pretty well, what i saw was a 100% SUIT sight and bracket, but i'm sure that someone will have the DS solution...i'll be the first to admit that i'm a total feck wit and that i must have been in a drunken haze ..what? drunken haze? germany?..prep for ex whilst pi**ed? ..surely not?....anyways, maybe they were as rare as rocking horse excrement?..maybe not?...guess memory can let us all down sometimes?

    i've tried to get an answer to this on the QM's thread , might try the SASC one too.
     
  10. There shouldn't be a problem fitting SUSAT to an SLR, I'm pretty sure a quick boresight to get the sight roughly aligned to the barrel followed by the usual adjustments would do the job. Obviously you need to know the where your shots need to go at 100m in order to strike centrally at 300m (up a bit and right a bit I expect?) but I'm sure this is known to the SASC ? Anyway, I'm sure I've seen photos of SUSAT fitted to a GPMG and a .50 calibre in Iraq or the 'ghan, it it will work on them it will work on an SLR surely?
     
  11. My bold.
    Fair enough. You can see why I suggested what I did though.
     
  12. Jaeger, i like the 'little strip of green' comment...i passed out of the old Rifle depot in '78 ...was it me or were all the training screws and Plt Sgts feckin pyscho's?...i loved 'em for it though, coming from Sarf Lunden and after spending 5 years at all boys school with over 1000 mad pupils, it was like home from home...the SUSAT is mounted on the .50 Cal in order to get the max use of the range of the weapon, seems the SUIT sight idea for the GPMG tried the same thing?....no worries, i've started a big feck off debate an another thread over this..oops!..best i go hide.
     
  13. Anything can be fitted to anything with a bit of gunsmithing. If you're not bothered about dialling 600 when you want 800 (or whatever) then there would be no need to recalibrate the sight adjuster. Otherwise it will want a new scale to give the right readings for the correction you apply. i suspect teh ones fitted on 50BMG will have this.

    7.62 and 5.56 have broadly similar ballistic curves out to about 700m but beyond that 5.56 drops a lot more. As you want to reach out to 1200m or more with GPMG I would venture it would need a properly calibrated scale on the elevation adjustment.
     
  14. Only a few years late for this topic ! I have a SUIT mount for the GPMG and it fits on our de-activated GPMGs fitted with the side dovetail. The SUIT unclips from the L1A1 top cover and clips onto the GPMG mounted bracket in seconds. I've just tried it. I have not seen this in any manuals. I am about to unveil my new arrival to the MOD. Its the M240 top cover with picatinny rail which opens up a whole load of opportunities. ACOG, Elcan M145, AN/PAS 13 and strangely enough the SUIT sight with our 20mm mount adaptor !! Also have the selective fire pistol group to show them which has a lever for single shot !! The yanks have barrel guards as well but remember they have padding when they play "Rugby" as well to stop them hurting themselves the damp pussies.