Substantive Rank

#2
ocdtelite said:
Could someone please explain what substantive rank is and how it works as i have no idea? thanks
Substansive rank is that which is yours and for which you are paid. It basically means a confirmed rank and not an acting rank (paid or unpaid). An acting rank can be taken away by your CO for any reason if he deems that you are not suitable to hold it if he feels so inclined...however substansive rank usually takes a Court Martial.
 
#4
also to add, in the ACF the highest substantive rank is Lieutenant, all other ranks above is acting as in "Acting ACF Captain", "Acting ACF Major" etc
 
#5
semper said:
also to add, in the ACF the highest substantive rank is Lieutenant, all other ranks above is acting as in "Acting ACF Captain", "Acting ACF Major" etc
you are quite right to an extent. Remove the 'ACF' are you're spot on (Acting Captain, Acting Major ....... all the way to Acting Colonel - but no higher)
 
#6
You can, in normal circumstances, only act up to the rank above that which you hold substantively and then only for a fixed period of time before reverting back to your substantive rank. It is most commonly used when an NCO/Officer who is your immediate superior is posted on or leaves and there is a gap befoer the replacement arrives. So Capt Bloggs who is the Coy 2i/c becomes Acting Maj for (say) 6 months until the new Coy Cdr arrives. During that time you are paid an acting up allowance (based on the difference between your pay spine point and the entry point for the rank you are acting up to) for the exatr responsibility. If you do particularly well while acting up you may find that you benefit from accelerated promotion into the next substantive rank.
 
#7
This is fine for those who started in the ACF but how does it apply to transfers in? For example, a substantive Type A Lt Col became commandant of a county ACF. His ACF rank is Colonel but what is he substantively — a Lt Col or a Lt?
 
#9
stickybomb said:
This is fine for those who started in the ACF but how does it apply to transfers in? For example, a substantive Type A Lt Col became commandant of a county ACF. His ACF rank is Colonel but what is he substantively — a Lt Col or a Lt?
His substantive rank is Lieut.

Acting paid rank only goes as far as Lieut Col. Col is acting unpaid (paid at Lt Col rate)
 
#10
stickybomb said:
This is fine for those who started in the ACF but how does it apply to transfers in? For example, a substantive Type A Lt Col became commandant of a county ACF. His ACF rank is Colonel but what is he substantively — a Lt Col or a Lt?
I'm aware of a County where this occured in the last few years, the chap in question had to resign his Class A Lt Colonelcy, and was then re-commissioned as a Type B Lieutenant holding the Local rank of a Colonel.
 
#11
Thanks fellas. He really must have wanted to do the job.
 
#13
Is Officer Cadet a substantive rank ? (IIRC, my payslips from LUOTC back in the late 80's used to call me a Pte.)
 
#14
Is Officer Cadet a substantive rank ?

It isn't a "rank" at all. It may possibly be an appointment, or perhaps just an temporary honorific.
 
#16
Fred_Cat said:
GwaiLo said:
Is Officer Cadet a substantive rank ?

It isn't a "rank" at all. It may possibly be an appointment, or perhaps just an temporary honorific.
Correct. Unlike Midshipman, which is a rank.
OCdt is an appointment. Midshipman is a commissioned rank, however it is junior to a 2Lt or Plt Off and usually denotes a Naval officer who has comlpeted BRNC Dartmouth (where they would hold the rank of OCdt) and who is undergoing training while part of a ship's company in the "Fleet Board" stage. Graduates would normally skip the rank of Midshipman and go straight to Sub-Lt and the fact that they have not completed thair Fleet Board is denoted by a little white flash underneath the golden loop on their shoulders.
 
#17
Praetorian said:
stickybomb said:
This is fine for those who started in the ACF but how does it apply to transfers in? For example, a substantive Type A Lt Col became commandant of a county ACF. His ACF rank is Colonel but what is he substantively — a Lt Col or a Lt?
I'm aware of a County where this occured in the last few years, the chap in question had to resign his Class A Lt Colonelcy, and was then re-commissioned as a Type B Lieutenant holding the Local rank of a Colonel.
I knew of a ACF Major who was also a TA Major and I believe he may now be a ACF Lt Col, not aware he had to resign his TA Type A commission to get that post. Also I believe there is an ACF commandant in post as a Colonel, who is still a TA Lt Col, so it doesn't appear to be an absolute that the Type A commission has to be resigned. (I have just recalled that there is another person I am aware of who is both an ACF and TA Major, presumably actting and substantive respectively).
 
#18
stickybomb said:
This is fine for those who started in the ACF but how does it apply to transfers in? For example, a substantive Type A Lt Col became commandant of a county ACF. His ACF rank is Colonel but what is he substantively — a Lt Col or a Lt?
I once saw this example with a brigadier who took up a commandants appointment. Basically his entry in the london gazette said:
"Brigadier X reverts at his own request to the rank of Lt(A/col) and assumes the appointment of commandant blahshire ACF." On retiring his entry read "Lt (A/Col) X retires from his appointment as commandant of Blahshire ACF and reverts to the rank of Brigadier (Retd)."
I assume from this that whatever rank you had before joining is the one you retire with, assuming it's substantive. Hope this helps.
 
#19
woopert said:
Midshipman is a commissioned rank, however it is junior to a 2Lt or Plt Off and usually denotes a Naval officer who has comlpeted BRNC Dartmouth (where they would hold the rank of OCdt) and who is undergoing training while part of a ship's company in the "Fleet Board" stage. Graduates would normally skip the rank of Midshipman and go straight to Sub-Lt and the fact that they have not completed thair Fleet Board is denoted by a little white flash underneath the golden loop on their shoulders.
This may have changed since my youth. Back in days of yore, midshipmites, although they are OF-1, were technically not commissioned officers - it is a warrant rank - directly equivalent to the old naval sailing masters, pursers etc and ranking with them when such existed. Naval officers got their commissions as a Sub Lt (or Lts for PQOs), dated to their promotion to that rank. When ships were large enough, midshipmen messed in a separate gun-room not the ward-room, although they are treated as baby officers. For example, strictly, midshipmen were entitled to carry dirks as opposed to swords - this was obsolescent - the only dirks at Dartmouth were in display cabinets. The white flash thing is newish.

Dartmouth, you were either midshipmen or acting-Sub-Lts, not having the Sandhurst equivalent of taking your rank on passing out.

This occasionally caused problems when midshipmen went on to their fleet-time (pre-Fleet Board) appointments as certain shitty jobs (crypto & weapons musters) required a commissioned officer to sign them off. Midshipmen didn't count.

Errors of spelling and grammar are entirely the fault of the wine with lunch.
 
#20
Idrach said:
woopert said:
Midshipman is a commissioned rank, however it is junior to a 2Lt or Plt Off and usually denotes a Naval officer who has comlpeted BRNC Dartmouth (where they would hold the rank of OCdt) and who is undergoing training while part of a ship's company in the "Fleet Board" stage. Graduates would normally skip the rank of Midshipman and go straight to Sub-Lt and the fact that they have not completed thair Fleet Board is denoted by a little white flash underneath the golden loop on their shoulders.
This may have changed since my youth. Back in days of yore, midshipmites, although they are OF-1, were technically not commissioned officers - it is a warrant rank - directly equivalent to the old naval sailing masters, pursers etc and ranking with them when such existed. Naval officers got their commissions as a Sub Lt (or Lts for PQOs), dated to their promotion to that rank. When ships were large enough, midshipmen messed in a separate gun-room not the ward-room, although they are treated as baby officers. For example, strictly, midshipmen were entitled to carry dirks as opposed to swords - this was obsolescent - the only dirks at Dartmouth were in display cabinets. The white flash thing is newish.

Dartmouth, you were either midshipmen or acting-Sub-Lts, not having the Sandhurst equivalent of taking your rank on passing out.

This occasionally caused problems when midshipmen went on to their fleet-time (pre-Fleet Board) appointments as certain shitty jobs (crypto & weapons musters) required a commissioned officer to sign them off. Midshipmen didn't count.

Errors of spelling and grammar are entirely the fault of the wine with lunch.
I'm not sure when Dartmouth stopped taking 13 year old cadets. Certainly when I went through BRNC 1978-1980 you did so a Midshipman (graduates excepted). Within BRNC you were pondlife, however, outside BRNC you were pondlife that got saluted. I believe now BRNC has reverted to Officer Cadets .
 

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