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Substantive and acting rank.

BuggerAll

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#1
ACF Officers are either one confirmed are substantive Lieutenants and hold acting rank - so it Lieutenant Acting Major Smith etc. What about officers who hold other commissions. Would an officer who is a TA or RARO Captain and an ACF Major be: Captain Acting Major Jones? What about retired officers who have retained thier Rank would they be: Major Acting Major Thomas?

Discuss...

I know pointless spotter question which I started wondering about when I looked at the NY Hons list.
 
#3
On joining the ACF, an officers is required to convert his TA List A or Regular Commission to a TA List B Commission. The highest substantive rank in List B is Lieutenant, therefore all ACF officers are acting in any rank above Lieut. On retirement, the officer would usually go back to his original state and become Major (retired) for example.

All this means that no, you wouldn't get a Captain acting Major etc.
 
#4
I know you can have dual commissions, one Captain in our Battalion is a Major in the TA. But you're either one or the other, never both.
 
#5
tsar_Nikolas said:
I know you can have dual commissions, one Captain in our Battalion is a Major in the TA. But you're either one or the other, never both.
How strange. 'We' would have them as their TA rank, but on paper, they would be whatever rank they fitted in as.
 
#8
Power in the wrong hands can be a very dangerous thing!
Just look at Hitler.
 
#9
Yes you can have dual ACF/CCF and TA commissions at the same time but they are quite separate; therefore you can be - for example - a TA Capt and an ACF/CCF Lt acting Lt Col
 
#10
dwills said:
tsar_Nikolas said:
I know you can have dual commissions, one Captain in our Battalion is a Major in the TA. But you're either one or the other, never both.
How strange. 'We' would have them as their TA rank, but on paper, they would be whatever rank they fitted in as.
I think it comes from the way the system works for those in the MoD and such like. You can only be a substantive Lt in the ACF, whilst in the TA you can go much higher. So, as our Capt in the ACF Major in the TA, works for the MoD as a Major, when he is an ACF adult he can't use his TA rank. If he was there as a member of the TA, then he would keep his Major rank, but then he would also have to get paid by the TA and not the ACF. I think

All very complicated really!
 
#11
eddie937 said:
make_safe!! said:
eddie937 said:
Do you speak English?
Bit complex for you??
Really,
what is it with TA/ACF oriffices and rank, i take it that someone is after as much rank as they can get.
You could join the salvation army aswell and be a major. Would that make you a captain/major/major or just a major kunt.
Well to me, it seems like someone looking at the new years honours list and asking what the hell was all the double ranks about, then coming on here to ask people who know to further his understanding.

Which seems more intelligent to me than your usual one line insulting replies.

He also seems to have a better grasp of the english language than yourself.
 

BuggerAll

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#12
Eddie,

Given your extremly Walty Avatar and pictures signature its a bit rich of you to go throwing insults around. Odd that everyone else understood my question - perhaps its you that does not have much grasp of English.

As I said I was asking a train spotter type question because it 'piqued' my curiosity. I'm sure there are people in the TA and the ACF who are after as much rank as they can get, but we know this never happens in the Regular Army.
 
#13
tsar_Nikolas said:
I know you can have dual commissions, one Captain in our Battalion is a Major in the TA. But you're either one or the other, never both.
My mistake, I was referring to Retired Officers.
 
#14
Harry Paget Flashman said:
tsar_Nikolas said:
I know you can have dual commissions, one Captain in our Battalion is a Major in the TA. But you're either one or the other, never both.
My mistake, I was referring to Retired Officers.
Yup, no problem. I was only recently made aware that all officers in the ACF have to convert their commissions if they have a regular or TA commission. I was very surprised to know that the CEO has to as well. It's a fair question really, because the whole officer system in the ACF is quite confusing, but they seem to be making it more smiple with the introduction of the CFCB instead of people doing RCBs and TCBs
 
#15
sknn said:
I'm sure there are people in the TA and the ACF who are after as much rank as they can get, but we know this never happens in the Regular Army.
Of course not!
 
#16
BRUCE said:
Power in the wrong hands can be a very dangerous thing!
Just look at Hitler.
I don't think Hitler would stand out in the ACF though...(adjust chin-strap, hunker down, awaits...INCOMING!!!) :twisted:

Actually would Hitler have gone for a Gp B commission or been happy as an Adolf Instructor?
 
#17
Regular Arrsers will know I'm a bit of a buff when it comes to Regulations (AKA sad bastard who flies a desk and reads too many manuals). Here goes....

As far as I'm aware, you can only hold one commission (hence one service number and one rank whether acting, local, brevet or substantive) at any one time. Appointment as an AI is slightly different - you can be an AI/SSI in the ACF/CCF and concurrently a Pte, NCO or WO in the TA. Remember that AIs/SSIs are not members of the Army, merely Crown Servants - civilians granted the priviledge of wearing uniform.

You cannot hold a TA General List Section B commission for service with the ACF/CCF at the same time as serving as a soldier in a TA unit. If you were to transfer as an officer from the ACF/CCF to a TA unit you would have to resign your General List Section B commission and be reappointed in a Group A or B commission, depending on what unit it was. Reappointment is usually by Divisional Selection Board only - not usually any need for TCB, TAPC or TACC unless the board recommend otherwise.

TA Group A and B commissions take precedence over General List Section B commissions, so a TA Officer helping with the ACF/CCF is still officially on strength of his TA unit and not on the strength of the ACF/CCF. Any MTDs would come from his TA unit. For that reason a TA Group A Major would still be a TA Group A Major if he helped out with the ACF. However, if said TA Group A Major got fed up with the TA and wanted to transfer to the ACF/CCF full time, he would have to resign his TA Group A commission and accept a General List Section B commission. The highest substantive rank on the General List Section B is Lt, so aforementioned Major would also revert to Lt in substantive rank (surprisingly, many don't mind doing this).

ACF/CCF Officers can be granted paid acting rank up to the rank of Lt Col. An ACF Cadet Commandant is usually the unpaid acting rank of Colonel (so wears a Cols rank), paid acting rank of Lt Col (but gets the dosh of a Lt Col). If we go back the the example of the transferring TA Group A Major, he'd almost certainly be granted the paid acting rank of Major immediately when he joined the ACF.

Annexes K and L to Chap 4, TA Regs 1978 refer.

Does this answer question?
 

maninblack

LE
Book Reviewer
#18
Country_Bumpkin said:
Regular Arrsers will know I'm a bit of a buff when it comes to Regulations (AKA sad fatherless who flies a desk and reads too many manuals). Here goes....

As far as I'm aware, you can only hold one commission (hence one service number and one rank whether acting, local, brevet or substantive) at any one time. Appointment as an AI is slightly different - you can be an AI/SSI in the ACF/CCF and concurrently a Pte, NCO or WO in the TA. Remember that AIs/SSIs are not members of the Army, merely Crown Servants - civilians granted the priviledge of wearing uniform.

You cannot hold a TA General List Section B commission for service with the ACF/CCF at the same time as serving as a soldier in a TA unit. If you were to transfer as an officer from the ACF/CCF to a TA unit you would have to resign your General List Section B commission and be reappointed in a Group A or B commission, depending on what unit it was. Reappointment is usually by Divisional Selection Board only - not usually any need for TCB, TAPC or TACC unless the board recommend otherwise.

TA Group A and B commissions take precedence over General List Section B commissions, so a TA Officer helping with the ACF/CCF is still officially on strength of his TA unit and not on the strength of the ACF/CCF. Any MTDs would come from his TA unit. For that reason a TA Group A Major would still be a TA Group A Major if he helped out with the ACF. However, if said TA Group A Major got fed up with the TA and wanted to transfer to the ACF/CCF full time, he would have to resign his TA Group A commission and accept a General List Section B commission. The highest substantive rank on the General List Section B is Lt, so aforementioned Major would also revert to Lt in substantive rank (surprisingly, many don't mind doing this).

ACF/CCF Officers can be granted paid acting rank up to the rank of Lt Col. An ACF Cadet Commandant is usually the unpaid acting rank of Colonel (so wears a Cols rank), paid acting rank of Lt Col (but gets the dosh of a Lt Col). If we go back the the example of the transferring TA Group A Major, he'd almost certainly be granted the paid acting rank of Major immediately when he joined the ACF.

Annexes K and L to Chap 4, TA Regs 1978 refer.

Does this answer question?
That may well be as far as it goes however, if you look on certain notices for possible mobilisation for FTRS for officers, there is sometimes a note that requires those who hold an ACF or CFF commission as well as a standard TA commission to resign the former in order to be deployed on active service. One cannot resign a commission that one does not hold therefore it must be possible to hold both. I am aware of one person who is a major in a TA SF unit and a CCF contingent commander as well.
 
#19
Hate to correct C_B, but one doesn't resign the other commission on appointment to a Type B (ACF) commission. Look at the Gazette: one REVERTS to Lieutenant from one's former (more senior) substantive rank.

When one leaves the ACF one can then be gazetted as having transferred to another list and having resumed one's substantive rank.

In my case, having been roped into the ACF some years after leaving the Army, I was simply transferred from one of the reserve lists to the TA Type B list - same number, same seniority and same substantive rank (Lt) as I had when I left the Colours.

I'm sure as a result that I must hold a record for the longest elapsed time from Lt to A/Capt - 24 years :lol: 8)
 

BuggerAll

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
#20
CB,

You need to do more spotting - you can hold a TA (Gp A) and and ACF or CCF(Army) (Gp B) commission at the same time. I know several people that do.

I think the answer to my (pedantic) question is that whether or not you hold another commission if you were being refered to in your context as an ACF officer it would be Lt Acting Captain regardless of what other rank you hold.
 

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