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Stop saying sir on the phone- A request by an RN doctor

Oh for goodness sake.

I have no “fake outrage”. I merely stated an honest personal opinion that I wouldn’t be best pleased if I was called Sir. That’s it.

If you were a man working in a canteen, would it be appropriate to call you a "lunch lady" ?
We now refer to police officers, firefighters, postal workers ... all non-gendered terms. It's not that complicated.
You shouldn’t be afraid to adapt and modernise.

Dinner Lady Shirley?


Sent from my karzi while losing several pounds
 
I have to say I think its now vanishingly unlikely that someone of @CrestedViper 's vintage is ever going to be greeted on the phone in the manner under discussion. I can also understand how it is easy to conflate the behaviour of "some soldiers within the Army" with "Army" policy as well (as @Buddy! also seems to have done and then introduced career management for some reason). There are still actual battles needing fought out there though.

As an aside I'd suggest that for @CrestedViper using a phrase "having to delay", when in fact your RMAS staff will firmly remind you that it was a choice might be something you could look at before you go. It's the sort of thing that I fell into more than once.
 

37ucv67i

War Hero
The Army...needs to show that it is an employer where everyone feels welcome and that their gender is of secondary concern to their ability to do the job.
May I ask how you get from "Unknown callers are adressed as Sir. The very moment it is known who they are this changes accordingly." to insinuating that "the Army makes females feel unwelcome and considers them incapable of doing their job"? Seems a very daring logical leap to me.
 
I think it would suit your narrative better if I used my little dainty 23 year old lady thumbs to type out a passionate post. A nice big rambling emotive piece regarding the injustice in society, toxic masculinity and the upset I feel having to fight gender inequality everyday.

The dull truth I’m afraid is my position is far less interesting. It’s simply as a female I’d be somewhat annoyed if I was addressed as Sir. That’s it. Not earth shatteringly outraged. Not filled with horror or shock. Not rendered unable to carry on. Just somewhat annoyed. Which people can choose or choose not to give a **** about, it doesn’t matter to me. I then made a wider point about the challenges Army recruitment faces with attracting quality young talent. I mentioned that I believe as an employer they should continue to demonstrate that gender is of secondary concern to their ability to do the job. My biggest concern today is that I’ve had to delay my 8 mile run.

I probably share many of your frustrations and equally roll my eyes at PC gone mad. I don’t think someone is on the other end of the line waiting to try upset me. For a little more context, I am the daughter of two 22 year service personnel and I grew up on military bases. This obviously means very little and I only mention it to highlight that I’ve experienced the military culture in some respect.

I don’t care what you have between your legs, if I think someone is a dick or **** (see what I did there) then their gender is irrelevant to me. I really can’t be arsed to continue this silly back and forth with you. You joined this forum when I was ten years old and have 57,246 posts- clearly I have a while to go before I am savvy enough to match you in online debate.

To round up, I’m not joining to go on a feminist crusade nor will I throw my teddies out if I hear something I don’t agree with. I’m joining with the intention of doing the job well and doing myself proud. Whether I am readily "accepted" by those I work with will hopefully be down to how I
am as an individual, my professionalism & humility.

Can I go back outside and play now mister?

Right-on Sister.


Sent from my karzi while losing several pounds
 

Buddy!

War Hero
Well played, sir!

It looks as though you've won this round of 'I'm More Offended Than You', as @CrestedViper has withdrawn in the face of your resolute queefery.

Mmm... Well, the fact that this is now a 13 page thread discussing something that is plainly inappropriate in the year 2020 says a lot really doesn't it.
 
I think it would suit your narrative better if I used my little dainty 23 year old lady thumbs to type out a passionate post. A nice big rambling emotive piece regarding the injustice in society, toxic masculinity and the upset I feel having to fight gender inequality everyday.

The dull truth I’m afraid is my position is far less interesting. It’s simply as a female I’d be somewhat annoyed if I was addressed as Sir. That’s it. Not earth shatteringly outraged. Not filled with horror or shock. Not rendered unable to carry on. Just somewhat annoyed. Which people can choose or choose not to give a **** about, it doesn’t matter to me. I then made a wider point about the challenges Army recruitment faces with attracting quality young talent. I mentioned that I believe as an employer they should continue to demonstrate that gender is of secondary concern to their ability to do the job. My biggest concern today is that I’ve had to delay my 8 mile run.

I probably share many of your frustrations and equally roll my eyes at PC gone mad. I don’t think someone is on the other end of the line waiting to try upset me. For a little more context, I am the daughter of two 22 year service personnel and I grew up on military bases. This obviously means very little and I only mention it to highlight that I’ve experienced the military culture in some respect.

I don’t care what you have between your legs, if I think someone is a dick or **** (see what I did there) then their gender is irrelevant to me. I really can’t be arsed to continue this silly back and forth with you. You joined this forum when I was ten years old and have 57,246 posts- clearly I have a while to go before I am savvy enough to match you in online debate.

To round up, I’m not joining to go on a feminist crusade nor will I throw my teddies out if I hear something I don’t agree with. I’m joining with the intention of doing the job well and doing myself proud. Whether I am readily "accepted" by those I work with will hopefully be down to how I
am as an individual, my professionalism & humility.

Can I go back outside and play now mister?

If you were just "simply" annoyed to be called sir, what was all this bollocks?
The Army is fighting a recruitment battle for young talent against a huge range of employers and needs to attract people not just for the short term, but the long term too. It needs to show that it is an employer where everyone feels welcome and that their gender is of secondary concern to their ability to do the job. We shouldn’t fear moving with the times.
Are you going to campaign to get the REME to change their name for toms if you get through?

As the majority of the Army are not Sirs or Ma'am, I doubt they give a shit about it one way or another. The blokes who become officers wont care. The female officers who have a life wont care about it, just a small vocal minority who plainly have fuck all else to worry about. just so you are clear why it happens, its because decades ago thats how we were taught to use the phone, it hasnt been taught in years, its just young lads/lasses copying what they see and hear from the older generation, just like they call the Spar/Londis the NAAFI. Nothing to do with sexism, Army policy or being stuck in the past.

Are you sure you cant be arsed because you have shown yourself up to be a bit of snowflake? Good luck joining the paras if some young tom initially calling you Sir on the phone bothers you. Seriously, you are supposed to want to be a leader, do you think Pte Bloggs and Pte Bloggeter care that someone on a phone called them Sir once on the phone?

As to your humility

You wrote on another post
The British Army has struggled to fill its infantry units for years, yet in an era of a recruiting crisis, a very small group of people seem to be obsessed with the idea that people who haven’t got a dick and can’t possibly do the job and its dangerous to let them in.

Did your RAF officer parents tell you that? The vast majority of people who object to females in the infantry have reasons such as the Army are wankers when it comes to equal rights, in other parts of the Army where females have served for nearly 3 decades next to men, there are still problems, the army said there will not be two standards of fitness (Previously females had to do less press ups and had a longer time to run) purely coincidentally the Army has recently changed the fitness tests, now they are generally easier but as they apply equally to males and females its okay... I cant remember what year the Army is supposed to have 15% females serving but its soon, quotas that cant be met, generally lead to a lowering of standards so they can be met.

You probably didnt know all that but it didnt stop you chopsing off about those nasty men who were sexist.

You might be the best officer that Sandhurst has ever seen, you might be in for a shock, only time will tell.
 

Helm

MIA
Moderator
Book Reviewer
Mmm... Well, the fact that this is now a 13 page thread discussing something that is plainly inappropriate in the year 2020 says a lot really doesn't it.
 
May I ask how you get from "Unknown callers are adressed as Sir. The very moment it is known who they are this changes accordingly." to insinuating that "the Army makes females feel unwelcome and considers them incapable of doing their job"? Seems a very daring logical leap to me.

A bit like people who dont care if you are a para/commando/SAS trained with a VC and bar, if you automatically say Sir once on the phone then...

I'd suggest anyone who feels otherwise really doesn't have a place in the modern day British Army.
 
I'd suggest anyone who feels otherwise really doesn't have a place in the modern day British Army.
The army might be modern-day and it might be adapting to meet modern expectations and I fully expect that someone somewhere will take time out from writing edicts on acceptable officers’ mess biscuits to pen new telephone protocols.
 
Surely the time to get upset/annoyed/miffed etc would be if someone refers to a female (cis or otherwise) as "sir" knowing who it is.

Clearly the easy thing to do is bin referring to officers as sir or Ma'am in the first place as these are gender based and don't allow dor the gender fluid/nuteral/non binary.


(Along with gender ranks, such as guardsman, craftsman, not forgetting the RAF with SAC and SACW )
 
Surely the time to get upset/annoyed/miffed etc would be if someone refers to a female (cis or otherwise) as "sir" knowing who it is.

Clearly the easy thing to do is bin referring to officers as sir or Ma'am in the first place as these are gender based and don't allow dor the gender fluid/nuteral/non binary.


(Along with gender ranks, such as guardsman, craftsman, not forgetting the RAF with SAC and SACW )

Boss?
 
Surely the time to get upset/annoyed/miffed etc would be if someone refers to a female (cis or otherwise) as "sir" knowing who it is.

Clearly the easy thing to do is bin referring to officers as sir or Ma'am in the first place as these are gender based and don't allow dor the gender fluid/nuteral/non binary.


(Along with gender ranks, such as guardsman, craftsman, not forgetting the RAF with SAC and SACW )

I have to say that I remember being quite impressed by a new wing OC who was attached to my OTC deftly avoiding the issue of gender when issuing a set of orders (his first to us ISTR). Perhaps a third of the group were female but as he reached the part where he set the ammo loadout he used the phrase "per bayonet" rather than the "per rifleman" that we would have perhaps used. He then also used "LSW" neatly distinguishing between the expected function of the weapon and its bearer and any of their other characteristics.
 

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