Sticking people on for minor stuff...

Discussion in 'The Intelligence Cell' started by bensonby, Aug 27, 2008.

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  1. I'll probably get a little bit of stick for this (no pun intended) but the general consensus seems to be that there are a lot of pocket Hitlers (often council employees) that really enjoy writing tickets and handing out fines for minor things, 'criminalising' normal people who are otherwise law-abiding.

    I fully agree that we police by consent (just about) and it would be counter productive to alienate normal law-abiding people - we need cooperation. So I've always taken the 'attitude test' approach when dealing with very minor stuff:

    "put your seatbelt on sir, its for your own safety"

    "It appears you've inadvertantly dropped that cigarette butt madam"

    "There's a perfectly good road for you to cycle on there sir, please get off the pavement"

    If the response to this is "Sorry officer, yes officer" and so on, then I'm happy enough. Its only if I get lip or rudeness that I'll be inclined to write a ticket &c.

    This is all well and good, however, I am inclined to believe that most of the people that I've said this sort of thing to will end up doing the same thing as soon as they are out of sight.

    Littering, for example, is a big bugbear of mine - and I can't stand people that make the outside of the station, for example, look like an ashtray.....or the people that leave the half-eaten kebabs strewn across the town centre....or the people that seem to think that the world outside of their car is a bin.

    So when is it reasonable to stick people on for the minor stuff? I'm heading down to the local (major-ish) station later for a bit of foot patrolling later....if the usual smokers are outside strewing their butts on the floor would it be unreasonable to fine a couple? Would seeing a couple of people fined remind the others that its not on...or will it just pish people off and make plod even more unpopular?
     
  2. Littering is littering at the end of the day. They cant even claim that the cig butts are biodegradable. Someone has to clear them up afterall.
    Let the filthy polutting smoker pick ot up if they drop it. Then fine the f**ker anyway.
     
  3. In my opinion, you are in a no win situation. I am all for fining people who litter, cant stand it myself, but doing so will make you unpopular with the people being fined, and everyone they tell. no two ways about it.
    The problem comes when discretion cant be used, if you take a hardline stance with fines, do you then fine me for chucking an apple core into a bush, or sticking me on for accidently dropping something, without the chance to pick it up.
     
  4. Seeing a couple of people fined for xxx


    There is the problem.

    Either zero tolerance for all including minorities of whatever stripe or the law gets removed as it is unenforceable.

    500 people chuck fagends/McD wrappers/whatever on the floor and you nick 3 of them means that the vast majority a)dont give a stuff b) reckon they will never get caught c)will have an excuse that the think will get them off.
     
  5. its hard, thats why I'm canvassing opinions....there is a little scope for discretion: hence the "attitude test."

    Butr questions could well be asked if you end up ticketing only a few people whilst others you may have seen doing it are let off with "words of advice"
     
  6. If you read yesterday's Daily Mail it would appear that council officials, park rangers, toilet attendants, retail security and Uncle Tom Cobbley and all are going to be given powers to hand out fines, demand names and addresses and take offender's photos. I think you'll find that you'll be too busy dealing with assaults on petty-minded minor officials to have any time for anything else.

    Incidently, my golden rule when dealing with any policeman is bags of respect, use of correct rank, and apologies where called for. I will also listen patiently to any ticking off that may come my way as long as that is where the matter ends. (I've only ever been stopped for minor traffic offences, I don't think it works for murder). Getting stroppy just ends up with the policeman charging you with everything he can possibly think of to muck one about.
     
  7. You could always look at Singapore as a model:

    Chewing gum in public? £500 fine

    Vandalise a car? Six strokes of the Rattan cane.

    Ruthlessly (ie fairly and across the board) enforced.

    The result - a clean, crime-free city.
     
  8. I think the important thing is that people believe that the police are generally there for the public good. If the occasional person gets a fine for littering then so be it, but the problem we have at the moment is the perception that the police are there simply to give the labour party good stats which it can trumpet out in parliament.

    We all have an inate sense on justice, even chimps have this. The job of the police is to provide society with a reliable, trustworthy means of seeing justice is done. As I said, the police are no longer seen to be doing this, they are acting only in the interests of the state, only interested in numbers. That means that EVERYONE will think that you are being unjust when fining them, as you are doing it simply to improve your numbers. Instead of, "it's a fair cop guv. It won't happen again", it will be "fcuking police state this, your only doing this to improve your numbers, why don't you go off and find some real criminals....."

    As i have said before, this is not the fault of the police, it is the fault of the government.
     
  9. STOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP!

    Jesus Bensonby, THINK for FECK's sake!

    This is how those pointless copper v squaddie v civvie threads start! IT bod and the others are going to be lining up to point out that we only do anything cos we're all gutless/were bullied at school/target chasing/have little willies/fill in space with appropriate moan.

    Just go for a nice walk. If a member of the public makes a complaint about littering, take their name and THEN approach the offender. Begin the summons/PND and when they moan, point out the complainant.

    Other than that, bimble around watching what's happening and storing it for Intel Reports or later use. Find some interesting alleyways that might be rat-runs or have a look at insecure windows and talk to people.

    WE both know that foot patrol is mostly useless but make the best of it in a nice but useful way.

    Leave the littering tickets to PCSO's unless you have some SOLAP NOS to complete, then do it and scuttle away :)

    Or have the vultures gathered already?

    To summarise;

    Do nothing - Fcking Lazy Plod
    Do something - Fcking Fascist Plod

    Alright?

    :wink: :wink:
     
  10. Not that anyone should think that I'm becoming paranoid or anything :)

    For an ideal model of local policing, I would reccomend the following text books: "Guards! Guards!" and "Night Watch".

    Both give excellent examples of how to do it and I follow the examples therein on a daily basis.

    Sam Vimes, the best copper ever!
     
  11. Bensonby,

    You don't make the law but you have to enforce it/see that it's adhered to.

    The streets can be pretty dusty these days, and depending on the wind, you may well turn a blind eye etc..

    I believe you use discretion and common sense in your application of "the job".

    If some oink gets stroppy I'd throw the book at him/her/chav/chavette.

    I've a good friend who's job is to enforce the no littering/fly tipping rules.

    Granted, I take the urine, but my best dig is; doesn't that show how folk's standards have dropped? If folk took their litter home (like I do and my teenage kids do) my mate would be out of a job.

    I can't understand folk that spit (TB aint the problem it was, although it's making a comeback), drop litter, fag butts etc. No doubt these same folk complain about the state of the place and expect the Councils to SORT it..

    A Copper's job is a thankless one - if they feel it's necessary to give a crim/chav a dig then fair enuff I say. It's what the public would like to do but are too civilised or afraid of the PC backlash.

    When I say PC backlash I don't mean getting a kicking from a Constable....
     
  12. 'WE both know that foot patrol is mostly useless but make the best of it in a nice but useful way.'

    When I did my AACC, all those years ago, the Bootnecks running the course were adamant that 'putting security forces in tin boxes and driving them around all day' served no useful policing purpose whatsoever. Foot patrols were where they got their good information from.

    Whilst I wouldn't dispute that policing has changed and that Senior Police Officers regard foot patrolling as a waste of resourse, at the end of the day, the public pay for policing and like to see coppers on the beat, if only for reassurance, and how much crime does a beat copper deter?
     
  13. He could recruit trolls here on ARRSE :)
     
  14. chimera

    chimera LE Moderator

    Isn't it all about this:

    http://www.crimereduction.homeoffice.gov.uk/toolkits/fa0106d.htm

    If you ignore the little rules, then then breaking the bigger ones is easier too.
     
  15. Bensonby, a thoughtful question and I understand the reasoning. However, the police are there to be respected not liked. (Only when they are digging you out of the pooh!). Same for any leader. Its not a popularity contest and I would like to think that Police Officers are leaders within society.

    Two points of view on this really; if I was to drop litter then an young police officer was to grip me for it, I would immediately be embarrassed and then after picking it up I would wonder why, when several hundred members of the general public decided to have a bit of a ruck after a street party, that they were not dealt with in the severest manner rather than allowing the poor police officers to be stood there in their dayglo jackets in a line like some sort of shooting gallery.

    In summary, you can only really enforce the minor offences when the major offences are publically and perhaps brutally stopped.

    To speekuff, that seems a very cynical approach although I am sure you have your reasons, but I do feel an awful lot safer when I see Police Officers out and about (rather than CSO who I fear are more of a training ground for future Police rather than an effective way to assist the police).

    Being based in Germany, a night out is very rarely marred by violence, and when it is in typical efficient German ways, the police are on it in a flash and have dealt with it. I have a few a friends in the Met Police, I wouldn't want their job because at least when I do mine I get a sh1t load of back up and ordinance!